Sutcliffe Is Dead

[barry1010]

He has finally got his wish

[pixie374]

///We want people to behave better, not worse. //

What do you suggest? I hope you are not going to suggest educating them. //

Are you suggesting that being violent towards people... makes them less violent??

As I said, there will be some that can be rehabilated or treated, and some that can't. You have to work out the difference. And with our general unwillingness to, it make take some time.

[retrocop]

//Retro, you will always have more crime within a denser population.//

Naturally so it's time to go back to the old ways to try and bring the rate down. It appears nothing else is working.
I think I will leave it there as I am diverting this thread from the death of Sutcliffe to the rights and wrongs of C. P.

[webbo3]

\\//...the uk isn't a country.//

What is it then, webbo (at danger of derailing the thread entirely)?//

Wales is a country
England is a country
Scotland is a country.

All part of the United Kingdom

[Vagus]

It’s referred to as an island country.

[fender62]

have clean sweep of all the serial killers and jihadists in prison
all you need is a wall and a 50calibre, cost to the tax payer - the cost of upkeep.

[webbo3]

Sovereign state

\\Is the UK a country?
The 'United Kingdom' refers to a political union between, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Although the UK is a fully independent sovereign state, the 4 nations that make it up are also countries in their own right and have a certain extent of autonomy.//

[andy-hughes]

pixie - // BTW, capital punishment is 100% a deterrent, as they don't do it again. //

True, but i think you'll find that the thrust of the argument in favour of CP is that it will'deter other people from doing the same' and I have always beleived, and will always believe, that that is arrant nonsense.

//I don't believe anyone's punishment, however bad, should be altered in the hope of changing other people's behaviour. It should be purely about their crime. //

I honestly don't think any crime, from the smallest to the largest, is ever committed with due and careful consideration to the posibilities of what may happen if the criminal is caught. let's be honest, if people did consider things like that, the would be bright enough not to commit the crime in the first place.

I do believe murder is an exception to that sceanrio though, because almost all other crimes are based on personal gain, wheras the majority of murders are carried out in the heat of the moment, with even less consideration of consequences, making the notion of a 'deterrent' even more fatuous than it was already.

[andy-hughes]

retrocop - // We have a nuclear response option as a deterrent. So far it has served us well and kept us free of a holocaust. Not so on the streets which is nothing less than uncivilised urban warefare and the innocents are always the ones who suffer for it. //

Are you seriously offering that as a comparison?

A deeply complex mass of dipomacy and politics developed over decades to arrive at a situation where the leaderhip of one nation has to jump through endless hoops before being given the gravely considered permission by a large number of politicians, to destroy a country or countries, with milliions of people -

lined up against a single act by one person of a disturbed mind against another more often than not in the heat of the moment, with no thought whatsoever of consequences for vidtim or prepetrator.

You may think that compariosn flies as an example of the concept of 'deterrent', I think it's so far distant as to be competely out of view.

[andy-hughes]

Following my post at 09:14 this morning -

// It was a sad indictment of the times when Sutcliffe first murdered an 'innocent ' woman, in other words, one who was not a prostitute.

In those less enlightened times, injury and death were seen as occupational hazards for sex workers. //

I am pleased that the police service has offered an unreserved apology for the language used and attitudes displayed by some of its officers during the investigation and trial of Sutcliffe.

I was around at that time, and I vividly remember how the imperative to catch him moved up several gears when his first victim found not to be a prostitute was murdered, and the perception was an increase in urgency, now that 'innocent' women were being killed.

[pixie374]

//I honestly don't think any crime, from the smallest to the largest, is ever committed with due and careful consideration to the posibilities of what may happen if the criminal is caught. let's be honest, if people did consider things like that, the would be bright enough not to commit the crime in the first place.//

You and I both know that isn't the case, Andy. In fact, many criminals, esp psychopaths are very intelligent.

If we are going with the punishment fitting the crime... it should not be about stopping others. I also don't particularly agree that locking someone up for decades, (particularly if they are mentally ill) is necessarily more "civilised" than killing them. Sutcliffe himself would have preferred to just die. It depends whether we are aiming for a safer society or just revenge. Plus, sometimes people get released. And our records of recidivism are not positive.
If prison isn't working, what are the alternatives?

[fender62]

punishments are obviously not a deterent, look at the knife murders in london alone, softly softly approach, just need a hug and understanding they must have had a hard life mmm yea
rapists as well, let alone pedo's...terrorists mmm mental illness.

[andy-hughes]

fender - // punishments are obviously not a deterent, look at the knife murders in london alone, softly softly approach, just need a hug and understanding they must have had a hard life mmm yea
rapists as well, let alone pedo's...terrorists mmm mental illness. //

Punishments may or may not be a deterrent, but sneering from the sidelines certainly isn't - nor it is really a helpful contribution to an interesting debate.

[andy-hughes]

pixie - // //I honestly don't think any crime, from the smallest to the largest, is ever committed with due and careful consideration to the posibilities of what may happen if the criminal is caught. let's be honest, if people did consider things like that, the would be bright enough not to commit the crime in the first place.//

You and I both know that isn't the case, Andy. In fact, many criminals, esp psychopaths are very intelligent. //

I take your point, but I think we have to accept that most murders are individual in circumstance and reason, so a 'one size fits all' solution is not the answer - we have to assess each case individually and work from there.

[douglas9401]

Oh I think sneering from the sidelines is infinitely preferable to shouting fire in a crowded theatre.

[pixie374]

Look at it however you like, fender.... we can see prison doesn't help for most men and nearly all women. Would you prefer to look tough, or actually improve things and reduce crime? As they aren't the same.

[andy-hughes]

douglas - // Oh I think sneering from the sidelines is infinitely preferable to shouting fire in a crowded theatre. //

And it shows!!

Oh, and by the way, the phrase is 'Falsely shouting fire in a crowded theatre ... ' - if you're going to be snide, at least try and be accurate while you are doing it.

[douglas9401]

Snide? Wouldn't dare go up agin the maestro.

[andy-hughes]

Douglas, let's stick to the thread shall we.

[agchristie]

"but I think we have to accept that most murders are individual in circumstance and reason"

They defo are and sometimes subsequent facts come to life that renders convictions unsafe.Maybe not so in this case but shuddering to think down the years how many folk wouldve been wrongly executed.

[pixie374]

In the past, many were. Nowadays, there are only a handful who probably should be executed and we have no doubt about their guilt. Things change.