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'Converts' To Christianity
Do we need them?
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Naomi, I can't claim to have read every word of either. I know the NT pretty well, especially the Gospels and Revelation; the Quran less so, which is why I was asking for examples. I still haven't read anything in the Quran which unequivocally and unconditionally advocates violence against anyone simply for not being a Muslim. The early Muslims did not encourage conversion to Islam, and lived in harmony with Jews and Christians. My point was that it is unhelpful simply to take quotations out of context; otherwise we could quote part of Psalm 14:1, "There is no God", as evidence that the Bible supports atheism.
Pixie, You’ve made it perfectly easy for me. It’s quite clear that you don’t understand Islam and you are unwilling to learn.
Put it this way. It is incumbent upon all Muslims to further the cause of their religion - that eventually Islam will achieve its goal of being the sole religion on the planet. Some do their bit by following the path of jihad in the hope of martyrdom, others like Shamina Begum become jihadi brides in order to provide for the needs of the fighters, others preach, others invite the infidel into their mosques and homes to demonstrate their friendliness, others seek high office in the west where they may be of influence, and others live family lives producing multiple children in order to increase numbers - but whatever they do Islam is their focus. It rules every aspect of their lives because as the Koran would have it ‘Allah knows best’.
I hope that helps.
Put it this way. It is incumbent upon all Muslims to further the cause of their religion - that eventually Islam will achieve its goal of being the sole religion on the planet. Some do their bit by following the path of jihad in the hope of martyrdom, others like Shamina Begum become jihadi brides in order to provide for the needs of the fighters, others preach, others invite the infidel into their mosques and homes to demonstrate their friendliness, others seek high office in the west where they may be of influence, and others live family lives producing multiple children in order to increase numbers - but whatever they do Islam is their focus. It rules every aspect of their lives because as the Koran would have it ‘Allah knows best’.
I hope that helps.
Betsy, sorry I can’t post links from my phone but I will get back to you tomorrow when I’m in my study and on my desktop.
For now I’ll just say that the information you have about early Islam is not entirely accurate - but you’ve been reading Karen Armstrong who does tend to portray Islamic history as rather more gentile than it actually was. In actual fact within the first 100 years if its existence Islam had conquered vast swathes of the Middle East and North Africa. Nice guys they weren’t.
For now I’ll just say that the information you have about early Islam is not entirely accurate - but you’ve been reading Karen Armstrong who does tend to portray Islamic history as rather more gentile than it actually was. In actual fact within the first 100 years if its existence Islam had conquered vast swathes of the Middle East and North Africa. Nice guys they weren’t.
I asked one direct question, naomi, several times. I realise you prevaricate, put words in my mouth and deliberately misinterpret, to ensure the original point has been long lost. I looked back, and realised my only non-stop posting, where I clear my diary for 3 days, is with you, and not even because we disagree. But because your method is to pretend not to understand anything you don't want to answer.
I have decided, to only respond to your genuine posts from now- and not get drawn in to defending myself from your wild misinterpretations and imaginings.
You aren't willing to answer (it's still there). Happy to leave it at that.
I have decided, to only respond to your genuine posts from now- and not get drawn in to defending myself from your wild misinterpretations and imaginings.
You aren't willing to answer (it's still there). Happy to leave it at that.
Khandro
I have gone, and figured, although it's not a phrase we tend to use in the UK.
This was a direct quotation from Karen Armstrong's "Islam: a short history", which I quoted in good faith - it wasn't something I just made up.
There was a pragmatic reason for Muslims doing this - it enabled them to collect more taxes. Before you dismiss Armstrong as an Islamic apologist, I have found other sources on the web supporting this, for example https:/
I have gone, and figured, although it's not a phrase we tend to use in the UK.
This was a direct quotation from Karen Armstrong's "Islam: a short history", which I quoted in good faith - it wasn't something I just made up.
There was a pragmatic reason for Muslims doing this - it enabled them to collect more taxes. Before you dismiss Armstrong as an Islamic apologist, I have found other sources on the web supporting this, for example https:/
Betsy, Muslims have always encouraged conversion. No one has ever been prevented from converting.
This deals with the issue of the tax you mention, which was imposed by the conquering Islamists upon the residents of occupied lands who refused to convert. It also deals with your request for evidence that Islam promotes violence.
//Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection [Quran 9:29]//
There is more which, as well as commanding the faithful not to befriend the infidel, goes into rather more gruesome detail. Separating heads from shoulders, cutting off fingertips…. I'm sure you get the picture.
Just a word of caution. The most likely people to take Islamic literature out of context are Islamic scholars and apologists who make every effort to promote Islam as the religion of peace. Don't be fooled. It is not.
I read your posts and know immediately that your reading matter is designed to encourage unwarranted empathy towards Islam. If I may I would like to suggest you read something that comes from an alternative source. I highly recommend 'The End of Faith Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason' by Sam Harris, and his 'Letter to a Christian Nation' - which is actually a missive to all those of religion. Richard Dawkins says 'Read Sam Harris and wake up'.
Since Khandro's thread is currently almost off the front page of 'News', I'll post another in 'Religion & Spirituality' with a link to this one. From the way this thread has gone R&S is a more appropriate place to continue this discussion - that's if anyone is interested in continuing it. Perhaps I'll see you there?
This deals with the issue of the tax you mention, which was imposed by the conquering Islamists upon the residents of occupied lands who refused to convert. It also deals with your request for evidence that Islam promotes violence.
//Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection [Quran 9:29]//
There is more which, as well as commanding the faithful not to befriend the infidel, goes into rather more gruesome detail. Separating heads from shoulders, cutting off fingertips…. I'm sure you get the picture.
Just a word of caution. The most likely people to take Islamic literature out of context are Islamic scholars and apologists who make every effort to promote Islam as the religion of peace. Don't be fooled. It is not.
I read your posts and know immediately that your reading matter is designed to encourage unwarranted empathy towards Islam. If I may I would like to suggest you read something that comes from an alternative source. I highly recommend 'The End of Faith Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason' by Sam Harris, and his 'Letter to a Christian Nation' - which is actually a missive to all those of religion. Richard Dawkins says 'Read Sam Harris and wake up'.
Since Khandro's thread is currently almost off the front page of 'News', I'll post another in 'Religion & Spirituality' with a link to this one. From the way this thread has gone R&S is a more appropriate place to continue this discussion - that's if anyone is interested in continuing it. Perhaps I'll see you there?
// It’s quite clear that you don’t understand Islam and you are unwilling to learn.//
well join the rest of AB
I think we may be talking about dhimmi - tax on non muslims
A form of social contract in a state under sharia law granting special status to all or certain non-Muslim subjects, providing rights of residence in return for taxes.
well that clearly says kill em all innit
o god Naomi yaaarts on Islam again ! foo as TTT might say
well join the rest of AB
I think we may be talking about dhimmi - tax on non muslims
A form of social contract in a state under sharia law granting special status to all or certain non-Muslim subjects, providing rights of residence in return for taxes.
well that clearly says kill em all innit
o god Naomi yaaarts on Islam again ! foo as TTT might say
and forced conversion
we have the issue of ahl al kitab - the people of the book - those who hae sacred text - bible, torah, vesta
who was it who said - you dont know about islam?
The Prophet Muhammad gave many privileges to Ahl al-Kitāb that are not to be extended to heathens. Ahl al-Kitāb are granted freedom of worship; thus, during the early Muslim conquests, Jews and Christians were not forced to convert to Islam
have fun boys and gurlz
we have the issue of ahl al kitab - the people of the book - those who hae sacred text - bible, torah, vesta
who was it who said - you dont know about islam?
The Prophet Muhammad gave many privileges to Ahl al-Kitāb that are not to be extended to heathens. Ahl al-Kitāb are granted freedom of worship; thus, during the early Muslim conquests, Jews and Christians were not forced to convert to Islam
have fun boys and gurlz
Oh dear. The expert googler strikes again. Poor old PP. He does try.
https:/
https:/
Thanks Naomi. It is refreshing to receive a respectful reply rather than simply be accused of lacking credibility.
Regarding Armstrong, she has her critics but is generally widely respected. I have read Dawkins, but not Harris (yet), and Dawkins, too, has his own agenda. The Quran, like the Bible, often contradicts itself, and it can be dangerous to cherry-pick passages that appear to support one point of view or another. I don’t expect that all Muslims believe every word of the Quran, any more than I think all Christians believe every word of the Bible. (If they did, they would be in the strange situation of believing and not believing something at the same time.) Does the fact that one’s holy book is flawed automatically discredit the religion itself? If the manual is ambiguous, does that mean there is something wrong with the product?
See you in R&S :-)
Regarding Armstrong, she has her critics but is generally widely respected. I have read Dawkins, but not Harris (yet), and Dawkins, too, has his own agenda. The Quran, like the Bible, often contradicts itself, and it can be dangerous to cherry-pick passages that appear to support one point of view or another. I don’t expect that all Muslims believe every word of the Quran, any more than I think all Christians believe every word of the Bible. (If they did, they would be in the strange situation of believing and not believing something at the same time.) Does the fact that one’s holy book is flawed automatically discredit the religion itself? If the manual is ambiguous, does that mean there is something wrong with the product?
See you in R&S :-)
Good morning, Betsy. I've answered you here:
https:/
https:/
HTB; Fining people in the 7th century as taxes, for not being followers of your new religion is hardly living in 'peace & harmony' is it?
I would liken that to YOU being fined by say, the Scientologists for not being one of them! The stories of the oppression of the Jews & other non-Islamic religions over the centuries is frightening.
I have here 3 books by K. Armstrong btw. she's OK but is a bit of an apologist & it is useless trying to use any internet Islamic site for reference as all they do is whitewash everything
One of the best sources for honest criticism of Islam would be Hamad Abdel-Samad, https:/
I would liken that to YOU being fined by say, the Scientologists for not being one of them! The stories of the oppression of the Jews & other non-Islamic religions over the centuries is frightening.
I have here 3 books by K. Armstrong btw. she's OK but is a bit of an apologist & it is useless trying to use any internet Islamic site for reference as all they do is whitewash everything
One of the best sources for honest criticism of Islam would be Hamad Abdel-Samad, https:/
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