De Menezes

[flip-flop]

Is it right that the policemen who shot De Menezes should escape prosecution?

Personally, I think it is absolutely the right decision.

[johnlambert]

No, but I did sift through the remains of a bus after the IRA blew it, and 6 other innocent people to kingdom come. If I had been in the situation where I could have prevented that by shooting the bombers in the head, I would not hesitate. Those Policemen were in similar circumstances, they had to make a split second decision, and as our friend Ward-Minter correctly pointed out, being human they made a mistake.

[noxlumos]

Oh bully for you John. Who mentioned YOU personally anyway? You weren't the only member of the forces out there were you? Well then. I'm not going to divert attention from the latest screw up and cover up by the police and military by banging on about what I and every other person in the north knows to be true but anyone who wants to investigate further might wish to follow the following links which underline perfectly how commonplace not only "mistakes" but murders by the security forces were.

http://www.serve.com/pfc/

http://www.relativesforjustice.com/index.php

I have no "petty little squabble" despite my best friend being one of the victims of such a "mistake", however the families of Seamus Ludlow, Rosemary Nelson and Pat Finucane to name but three, DO, as would you if your family member had been murdered by the security forces.
No-one said every single soldier was corrupt but there is widespread collusion between the secirity forces, police and loyalist terrorists and they all cover for each other, or are you totally blinkered as to what happens there?
As for De-Menezes, I stand by my opinion, he was murdered and his murderers are covering their arses as per usual.

[johnlambert]

And the IRA didnt murder anyone?

[noxlumos]

Who said that? This question is nothing to do with the IRA. It's do with whether De-Menzes was murdered by the police and security forces or not and no matter how many people the IRA did or did not murder does that make it right for the secirity forces to murder anyone? Apparently you think so. The relevance of mentioning the situation in the north of Ireland is that the security foces and police have a long and murkey history of knocking people off then covering it up, so why should they begave any differently in this case?

[johnlambert]

With respect Nox, thats your point of view, I expect after living in an republican area ( i assume that you do live in West Belfast) you would only see the worse in regards the British Army /RUC or whatever they are called now and the rest of the UK security forces, but you have to understand that we are now in a different situation from "the troubles". The republican terrorists never carried out suicide bombings, they prefered to plant their bombs and run away to plant more bombs another day, however if they had the b***s die with their victims then, as I said, we would have shot them with pleasure

[sense4all]

ORDER ,ORDER, please can we return to the original subject matter?

[johnlambert]

Oh yeah, sorry,
Yes I think it was ok to shoot that man,

[noxlumos]

You're dodging the issue John. This man was not a suicide bomber , he was a effing electrician, so someone screwed up to biblical extents and the IRA have nothing to do with it at all, niether do my political motivations.
I mentioned what is commonplace in Belfast simply to underline the fact that the security services think nothing of killing innocent people and they never have.THERFORE since they have been doing it for years in the north of Ireland why oh why would anyone trust them to be transparent and honest about their actions in the De-Menezes case? That is the ONLY relevance, their past record. So could you, without going on about the IRA etc, please explain how it's ok to shoot De-Menezes and okay to shoot Pat Finucane in front of his kids and ok to kill Rosemary Nelson and ok to kidnap and murder Seamus Ludlow just because you are the security services? Murder is murder is it not? Or is it not to you?Is it ok if you have a uniform and can proudly say you're on the right side? Is there a right side to be on though when the person you shoot is innocent? That is the question I want someone to answer.

[noxlumos]

I'm actually trying to get it back to De-Menezes, I merely cited the security service's crap record of killing people and then lying to cover it up as proof almost positive that there has been an alimighty cover up in the De-Menezes case.
The man was mudrdered by incompetance pure and simple and no-one is going to catch the fall for that because they don't have to, they're all looking after each other like they always do.

[johnlambert]

I can only go by my own experiences nox, and I can empathise with those officers. Despite what you may think, not everyone in uniform is an out of control killer, I didnt enjoy taking human life in NI or Iraq, but I belive every single one was justified. Perhaps someone higher up the chain of command did make a mistake, but, I also belive there has been enough wringing of hands and soul searching.

[noxlumos]

I can empathise with them John, we all make mistakes in out lives, and if you read my thread I acknowledge that not everyone in a uniform is a bad guy, but surely when an innocent person is murdered someone has to be culpable, and i do not mean necessarily the man who pulled the trigger?

[johnlambert]

But was it murder, or an accidental killing? depends on which side of the coin you view.
I dont deny that someone should be held responsible, but thats down to the CPS, perhaps a public enquiry would help, but that would compomise the intelligence services who, by the nature of their job need have their identities protected.

[Pippa68]

He was running away because his visa had expired and was worried about getting in trouble ~ is that what I read?

I'm afraid I was sitting on the fence at the time this happened, and I keep hanging on to it..not yet deciding which side I want to fall off.

However I am most likely to go with the 'casualty of war' opinion. It was a dreadful thing to happen, but as has been said these things have happened for years. One example being the guy who was shot when the police thought he was carrying a sawn-off.

[noxlumos]

Well they DID intend to kill him, they stuck 8 bullets in the back of his head ( not much doubt there I would think), and he WAS innocent of any wrongdoing so to me somewhere in the chain of command that equals a murder. As I said not necesarily the man that pulled the trigger but someone made enough mistakes to mean that he wound up dead.
I don't think you can say it was a mistake or an error because they intended to kill him. Whoever wrongly identified him as a terrorist should really carry the can for this, at the moment the security services hide behind their need for anonymity as a means for not having to be accountable to the very people who they are supposed to protect. That lack of accountability makes most people very uneasy, do you really know that you might not be next john? You have to have accountability when something so serious occurs otherwise where does it end and surely it's in the security service's best interests to be accountable so that the public backs them 100% and people like me who doubt their integrity can be silenced ( without a bullet) once and for all.

[noxlumos]

from what I gather now pippa he didn't run. He was sitting down reading a paper on the train and they dragged him from his seat and shot him in cold blood. The running away story was a decoy story put around initially to take the pressure off as the idea that someone could be killed like that was deemed too unpalletable. that is my point. the lies started immediately to cover themselves.
This link is from a special constables forum which I think you'll agree is unbiased enough to be taken pretty much as writ.

http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php? s=4e0cea475c7a72b456c0239bfb1d2159&showtopic=2 7366&st=0&p=557876&#entry557876

[sense4all]

I do struggle with the politicking that happens when events like this occur. I do remember a very short interview with an eye witness who was on the train ( only caught it once mind!) and you could tell from how shocked they were that it was a very brutal way to go. At the time this person said he( Mr Menendez) got onto the train quickly ( but just like you do when the doors are about to close) when the officer came on and the shooting occured. Some people in the station mentioned ,when questioned, that the radios were not able to relay instructions to the firearms officers. To me that is shameful ,how many people travel by the Tube, I am a stay at home mum, but even I can appreciate that this was a high risk target. We should furnish people with the approprite equipment ( and training) to perform their jobs to the highest standards possible.

[Pippa68]

Thank you nox.

[johnlambert]

Thanks for the link nox, but, having read the threads, im still convinced it was not murder in the premeditated way I understand murder to be.
As I said, those police officers were under the type of pressure that most people never encounter.
Imagine if De Menezes had indeed been a bomber and managed to detonate his device killing dozens of people. What would the public say if they knew the police were following him and failed to stop/kill him? They were in a no winsituation, damned if they do, damned if they dont, unfortunately they got it wrong and an innocent man died, however I belive it was for the greater good

[xmrs_harmanx]

it was a sumple question which employed a simple answer so stick to the topic this isn't a message board

[johnlambert]

Who are you talking to?
This is a place where different ideas and theories can be put forward and debated, if that's not for you, then go elsewhere.