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Why should gays not be allowed to adopt?
The Sherman asked me the above in another thread, I thought it should be a general discussion as a reasonable Geezer I thought I'd create a separate thread. I give my own reasons here: 1. 2 dads/mums = a Nuclear bullying weapon = damged child. 2. Children need 2 parents 1 of each. 3. It is artificial and not what biology intended. 4. Left to their own devices same sex couples can not reproduce, hence are not geared up for bringing up children. 5. Children should not be induced into thinking that having 2 dads/mums is the norm. OK I accept that there are a lot of children whose normal upbringing leaves a lot to be desired, we are not talking about those. I fully accept that homosexuals are part of society and should live comfortable fulfilling lives but I will never accept that they should be any where near children. Oh and before you ask, no I'm not a Muslim.
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Ok jack well you have your opinions and I have mine, you'll have to do better if you expect me to change.
On point 1 though are you saying that when the little darlings find out down the road that Little Jonny Smith has 2 dads tbey'll not do or say anything? Really? you really think that bullying will not ensue? On your planet perhaps.
2 is my opinion, 3&4 are indisputable biological facts, 5 is my opinion
I exaplained above about the proximty issue.
On point 1 though are you saying that when the little darlings find out down the road that Little Jonny Smith has 2 dads tbey'll not do or say anything? Really? you really think that bullying will not ensue? On your planet perhaps.
2 is my opinion, 3&4 are indisputable biological facts, 5 is my opinion
I exaplained above about the proximty issue.
1. My boy suffered a little bullying................mainly from the children of blokes like you, I suspect.
2 & 5 are erroneous suppositions.
I fail to understand why 3&4 are considered to be grounds for refusing to let gay couple bring up children......
Where have you adequately explained the 'proximity issue' ?
2 & 5 are erroneous suppositions.
I fail to understand why 3&4 are considered to be grounds for refusing to let gay couple bring up children......
Where have you adequately explained the 'proximity issue' ?
You are correct vic about opinions rubbing off on children and I agree in an ideal world it would not be an issue. However opinions are based on how society actually is, not on some theoretical utopia of how I'd like it to be.
So 15 years ago you would be happy if a mixed race married couple could not adopt?
30 years ago you would be happy if unmarried parents were not allowed to adopt?
50 years ago, you would be happy if Irish or black couples were not allowed to adopt?
Maybe the suffragettes were wrong for wanting equality - same as the blacks in America. Society at the time didn't want it to change.
Society changes on a regular basis and we should not conduct ourselves because there are some ignorant people who 'fear' change. That's nothing to do with utopia - it's to do with real life.
So 15 years ago you would be happy if a mixed race married couple could not adopt?
30 years ago you would be happy if unmarried parents were not allowed to adopt?
50 years ago, you would be happy if Irish or black couples were not allowed to adopt?
Maybe the suffragettes were wrong for wanting equality - same as the blacks in America. Society at the time didn't want it to change.
Society changes on a regular basis and we should not conduct ourselves because there are some ignorant people who 'fear' change. That's nothing to do with utopia - it's to do with real life.
3. It is artificial and not what biology intended.
4. Left to their own devices same sex couples can not reproduce, hence are not geared up for bringing up children.
I presume that if you or your loved ones got cancer that you wouldn't want any drugs to cure you. After all - that's not what nature intended (and I am sure you are always complaining about the overcrowding of this country)
And obviously, left to your own device, you could not cure yourself.
4. Left to their own devices same sex couples can not reproduce, hence are not geared up for bringing up children.
I presume that if you or your loved ones got cancer that you wouldn't want any drugs to cure you. After all - that's not what nature intended (and I am sure you are always complaining about the overcrowding of this country)
And obviously, left to your own device, you could not cure yourself.
Are you part of a gay couple bringing up a Boy then?
I never mentioned gay's to my children or indeed sexuality generally, they found out in standard sex education and by experience presumably. I don't think they are bullies generally.
I said above near the start that when I said they should not be allowed anywhere near children, I did not mean as in the proximity I meant in the upbringing. Did you read the whole thread?
I never mentioned gay's to my children or indeed sexuality generally, they found out in standard sex education and by experience presumably. I don't think they are bullies generally.
I said above near the start that when I said they should not be allowed anywhere near children, I did not mean as in the proximity I meant in the upbringing. Did you read the whole thread?
Vic, things will change slowly, I don't think we should subject our children to sufferring on the altar of some sort of Right on trendy thinking. Just because we'd all prefer there to be no bullying etc it does not mean there won't be. If I shove my hand in the fire it'll burn as much as I'd rather it didn't.
Oneeyedvic All rather interesting your time chart, but would you care to put a date to when it will seem to be appropriate for a White couple to foster a Black child, or even a child of mixed race?
It would seem that in the eyes of the powers that be, a child of mixed race is classed as a Black child also, why?
It would seem that in the eyes of the powers that be, a child of mixed race is classed as a Black child also, why?
Your children in all probability aren't bullies, but if you are claiming that 'gay sensibilities' (even implicit rather than explicit ones) can 'rub off' on children, then you must allow that your anti-gay sensibilities will have 'rubbed off' on yours......
I understand your comments about 'proximity' in regards to distance, however, I still fail to understand (because you have failed to explain) what dreadful influence we are supposed to have on their upbringing.
I understand your comments about 'proximity' in regards to distance, however, I still fail to understand (because you have failed to explain) what dreadful influence we are supposed to have on their upbringing.
so 15 years ago, would you have said to a mixed race couple that they should not be allowed to adopt?
Things that are seen as normal now haven't always been as such - they all require things to change.
Giving a child to good parents is the only important thing.
Whether they are of the same sex or different sexes is (in my opinion) irrelevant.
Kids can be nasty - as a kid who was one of half a dozen asian kids in a school of quite a few hundred, I know what they can be like.
The only way kids won't get bullied is by not allowing them a school education. Even olympic stars get bullied: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/80149 74.stm
Should he be banned from competing in national events to save him?
Things that are seen as normal now haven't always been as such - they all require things to change.
Giving a child to good parents is the only important thing.
Whether they are of the same sex or different sexes is (in my opinion) irrelevant.
Kids can be nasty - as a kid who was one of half a dozen asian kids in a school of quite a few hundred, I know what they can be like.
The only way kids won't get bullied is by not allowing them a school education. Even olympic stars get bullied: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/80149 74.stm
Should he be banned from competing in national events to save him?
Oneeyedvic All rather interesting your time chart, but would you care to put a date to when it will seem to be appropriate for a White couple to foster a Black child, or even a child of mixed race?
It would seem that in the eyes of the powers that be, a child of mixed race is classed as a Black child also, why?
One of my best friends at school was Canadian and he and his parents were white. his sister was black. This was 20 years ago.
You haven't stated your view on this, but let me state mine - I have absolutely no issue with having white parents of black children or vice versa.
in answer to your question about what date - I think it is well over due.
1.Not necessarily so. My childhood friend whose mother left her father for a woman was never bullied nor was any of her brothers. Another friend had an openly gay sister, again not bullied at all.
However I was bullied for years for many many reasons including not having a dad because he died. All of this happened in the eighties/nineties on a council estate and attitudes have changed dramatically since then.
2.I come from a single parent family, so should I have been taken into care because of that? I think the more people a child have in their life to love and care for them the better.
3.There are believe it or not instances of same sex intercourse in nature, so not that uncommon or unnatural.
4.But there is no correlation between a person�s sexuality and their sense of maternal/paternal instincts. Children do not think of their parents (same sex or otherwise) as sexual beings anyway.
5.None of the offspring of the people mentioned above are gay all straight. And I know loads of gay people with mums and dads, so that just doesn�t stand up.
Basically the children we are talking about need loving homes and I think if you actually asked them they would not care about this at all if it meant they had a chance at having a loving, stable family offering them the chance of a happy start in life. From someone who had a very traumatic childhood I think I know what I would choose.
However I was bullied for years for many many reasons including not having a dad because he died. All of this happened in the eighties/nineties on a council estate and attitudes have changed dramatically since then.
2.I come from a single parent family, so should I have been taken into care because of that? I think the more people a child have in their life to love and care for them the better.
3.There are believe it or not instances of same sex intercourse in nature, so not that uncommon or unnatural.
4.But there is no correlation between a person�s sexuality and their sense of maternal/paternal instincts. Children do not think of their parents (same sex or otherwise) as sexual beings anyway.
5.None of the offspring of the people mentioned above are gay all straight. And I know loads of gay people with mums and dads, so that just doesn�t stand up.
Basically the children we are talking about need loving homes and I think if you actually asked them they would not care about this at all if it meant they had a chance at having a loving, stable family offering them the chance of a happy start in life. From someone who had a very traumatic childhood I think I know what I would choose.
Oneeyedvic
You haven't stated your view on this, but let me state mine - I have absolutely no issue with having white parents of black children or vice versa.
Our own personal views are irrelevant.
You still have not answered why the 'powers that be' shy away from placing Black children with white couples, and why children of mixed race are classed Black?
Perhaps sp1814 would also like to give his views to this?
You haven't stated your view on this, but let me state mine - I have absolutely no issue with having white parents of black children or vice versa.
Our own personal views are irrelevant.
You still have not answered why the 'powers that be' shy away from placing Black children with white couples, and why children of mixed race are classed Black?
Perhaps sp1814 would also like to give his views to this?
What does race/colour have to do with this?
Hazel made some very relevant points. Whether children are with their natural parents, with one natural parent, with aunts, uncles, grandparents, or with adoptive parents, same sex or otherwise, they need a loving, stable, home - it's as simple as that - and if we can provide it, then we should.
Incidentally Geezer, like Krom, I too have changed my mind on this issue.
Hazel made some very relevant points. Whether children are with their natural parents, with one natural parent, with aunts, uncles, grandparents, or with adoptive parents, same sex or otherwise, they need a loving, stable, home - it's as simple as that - and if we can provide it, then we should.
Incidentally Geezer, like Krom, I too have changed my mind on this issue.
Our own personal views are irrelevant.
Actually, I think our own views are more important - I can tell you what my view is - you can tell me what your view is - we can back up an argument with statistics and other facts.
You still have not answered why the 'powers that be' shy away from placing Black children with white couples, and why children of mixed race are classed Black?
I don't know. My guess would be that it is probably because there are not enough people campaigning for it to be made law.
But then there are issues on entering the European Union when public opinion is against it, so that may not be the reason at all.
As I said - I really don't know, and somehow I doubt that anyone does.
all we can do is talk about our views on subjects that are brought up - but if you think that is pointless or irrelevant, I am not sure why you use AnswerBank (or specifically the news section)
Actually, I think our own views are more important - I can tell you what my view is - you can tell me what your view is - we can back up an argument with statistics and other facts.
You still have not answered why the 'powers that be' shy away from placing Black children with white couples, and why children of mixed race are classed Black?
I don't know. My guess would be that it is probably because there are not enough people campaigning for it to be made law.
But then there are issues on entering the European Union when public opinion is against it, so that may not be the reason at all.
As I said - I really don't know, and somehow I doubt that anyone does.
all we can do is talk about our views on subjects that are brought up - but if you think that is pointless or irrelevant, I am not sure why you use AnswerBank (or specifically the news section)
Okay, I haven't read the thread since my last post - I just wanna respond to a question from R1:
would you share the details of what swayed you on this subject, presumably at one time you also did not agree with Gay adoption.
If you'd have asked me about a year and a half ago, I would've likely found more sympathy with the 'anti' rather than the pro side.
Around that time I then started being involved with a local project by an LGBT organisation that essentially went into schools and ran a workshop that was designed to reduce homophobic bullying (which, believe me, is still very common).
When we were designing the workshop, we decided to use a 'value line' - essentially the leaders say a statement, and the pupils go to whichever side of the room marked 'agree' or 'disagree' they're most sympathetic to (or in the middle if they're unsure) - we leaders by and large stayed out of it, just refereeing to make sure people could have their say. Gay adoption was one of the issues.
Inevitably, when we decided to do it, we started debating the issue ourselves. What swayed me was the realisation that bullying is endemic regardless, and that it's largely impossible to completely shelter kids from it, and that by keeping same-sex adoption out of the picture, nothing would change. Kids aren't stupid - when they're actually confronted with these issues and invited to think for themselves about it, they become far less willing to see it in the simple terms bullying allows - they realise it's more complicated. And it's amazing to realise what an incredible difference a few more supportive kids (even if they're not all persuaded) can have for the child that finds themselves being bullied.
That's what swayed me.
would you share the details of what swayed you on this subject, presumably at one time you also did not agree with Gay adoption.
If you'd have asked me about a year and a half ago, I would've likely found more sympathy with the 'anti' rather than the pro side.
Around that time I then started being involved with a local project by an LGBT organisation that essentially went into schools and ran a workshop that was designed to reduce homophobic bullying (which, believe me, is still very common).
When we were designing the workshop, we decided to use a 'value line' - essentially the leaders say a statement, and the pupils go to whichever side of the room marked 'agree' or 'disagree' they're most sympathetic to (or in the middle if they're unsure) - we leaders by and large stayed out of it, just refereeing to make sure people could have their say. Gay adoption was one of the issues.
Inevitably, when we decided to do it, we started debating the issue ourselves. What swayed me was the realisation that bullying is endemic regardless, and that it's largely impossible to completely shelter kids from it, and that by keeping same-sex adoption out of the picture, nothing would change. Kids aren't stupid - when they're actually confronted with these issues and invited to think for themselves about it, they become far less willing to see it in the simple terms bullying allows - they realise it's more complicated. And it's amazing to realise what an incredible difference a few more supportive kids (even if they're not all persuaded) can have for the child that finds themselves being bullied.
That's what swayed me.
AOG
You still have not answered why the 'powers that be' shy away from placing Black children with white couples, and why children of mixed race are classed Black?
Perhaps sp1814 would also like to give his views to this?
Just a quick response...based on learnings from social services, it's deemed preferable to place black children with black foster parents/adopters.
Personally, I don't think that you should leave a child in care until the 'perfect' adoptive parents turned up.
You can't play Tetris with kids (waiting until the absolute perfect fit turned up).
Anyway, who's to say that a black kid will be deprived of their cultural heritage with white parents?
However, I'm less inclined to agree that cross-religious adoption has the same merits. I don't see how a Protestant family could possibly adopt a Catholic child (Muslim/Jew etc).
I just can't see that one working.
You still have not answered why the 'powers that be' shy away from placing Black children with white couples, and why children of mixed race are classed Black?
Perhaps sp1814 would also like to give his views to this?
Just a quick response...based on learnings from social services, it's deemed preferable to place black children with black foster parents/adopters.
Personally, I don't think that you should leave a child in care until the 'perfect' adoptive parents turned up.
You can't play Tetris with kids (waiting until the absolute perfect fit turned up).
Anyway, who's to say that a black kid will be deprived of their cultural heritage with white parents?
However, I'm less inclined to agree that cross-religious adoption has the same merits. I don't see how a Protestant family could possibly adopt a Catholic child (Muslim/Jew etc).
I just can't see that one working.
With regards to bi-racial people being considered black.
Dunno - but it's always been like that. When Dame Shirley Bassey was growing up in Cardiff, she was treated as black (not in a nasty way - just as a fact of life).
My reasoning is this - the vast majority of bi-racial people have black features. Barack Obama is a perfect example...he definitely doesn't have white features, and his skin colouring is akin to someone from say Barbados.
However, if you look at someone like Leona Lewis (winner of the 2007 The X Factor series):
http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/200 8/11/08-15/Leona-Lewis-j23.jpg
you wouldn't call her black...you wouldn't call her white. You would say she's bi-racial.
...and really, really, really beautiful.
Dunno - but it's always been like that. When Dame Shirley Bassey was growing up in Cardiff, she was treated as black (not in a nasty way - just as a fact of life).
My reasoning is this - the vast majority of bi-racial people have black features. Barack Obama is a perfect example...he definitely doesn't have white features, and his skin colouring is akin to someone from say Barbados.
However, if you look at someone like Leona Lewis (winner of the 2007 The X Factor series):
http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/200 8/11/08-15/Leona-Lewis-j23.jpg
you wouldn't call her black...you wouldn't call her white. You would say she's bi-racial.
...and really, really, really beautiful.
Hi Sp, just a quick one I don't see how a Protestant family could possibly adopt a Catholic child (Muslim/Jew etc). <?i>
Personally I don't think there is such thing as a Insert religion Child
Children are not capable of making a decision of religious belief.
THat said, if there is a child of 14 who firmly believes in Catholicism then they should on balance probably not be put with a Jewish family - in the same way that a black child should not be placed with registered BNP supporters.
Personally I don't think there is such thing as a Insert religion Child
Children are not capable of making a decision of religious belief.
THat said, if there is a child of 14 who firmly believes in Catholicism then they should on balance probably not be put with a Jewish family - in the same way that a black child should not be placed with registered BNP supporters.
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