NHS - whay do they hate old people?

[R1Geezer]

http://news.sky.com/s...mns_Patient_Treatment
Generally I'm a fan of the NHS, well the idea and the intention anyway. Some of the day to day running leaves a lot to be desired but anyway, why do they seem to fail the elderly so spectacularly? It's not just a few isolated cases it just seems like institutional agism. Anyone got a closer insight into this?

[pa___ul3]

do you want to have a think about your maths R1, if feeding them was the only concern, then they'd be fed, they have many many other duties. It is simple algebra and the work capacity of X nurses < the work required to adequately care for N patients in too many cases. If there are individual nurses who do put their feet up while some patients are wetting themselves, bleeding, dying etc, then they should be sacked but to suggest nurses in general deliberately shun the needs of the elderly is, in one word, b0ll0x!

[LoftyLottie]

Paul, what I experienced was enough staff, but totally ridiculous rostering, in that a nurse was never on duty in the same bay for more than one 24 hour shift per week, so no continuity for patients. I also witnessed an awful lot of laziness and not a lot of people rushing around. I also was very aware of what was going on behind t he scenes as well and night times were completely dreadful. Elderly people crying out for drinks and in confused states and nurses just ignoring them and laughing about it.


They closed the ward to visitors during meal breaks so that, supposingly, the patients could be helped to eat without interruption from visitors. I have my suspicions that it was really to stop people seeing that the patients were not getting much help at all.

As ummmm rightly says, a great deal of those elderly patients are completely alone in the world. I just feel fortunate that I was there for my Mum!

Sorry, if I am going over the top, but I have heard similar things from other people in the same situation.

It is about time that 'nurses' nursed and doctors doctored in my opinion. Obviously, we have to have senior and more medically and technically trained nurses, but we need real caring people to actually 'care'.

And I saw some dreadful young students nurses who were just clueless. I am not saying all nurses are like this, but I think care for the elderly should be given priority. It definitely comes bottom of the pile.

[R1Geezer]

Ok as we are doing maths, let's say they need 10 staff and they only have 5, it will take twice as long for the 5 to do the work of 10 but it will get done and no one will starve. Ok it'll be later, functions will be behind but they will get done eventually. What is happenning in hospitals appears to be pure and simple neglect. In anticipation of your next bit of nit picking, thoughout this thread I have used starve/food only as one example of the N things that need doing ok?

[rowanwitch]

so she had to do health care assistant work instead of learning...

When you are in the bedspace making a bed instead of talking to your colleague....talk to the patient, use the time to glance round an see what they might need....learn why you need to have the bottom sheet really smooth etc... every patient area task is a learning opportunity she needs to look at why she wants to become a nurse... its those attitudes that are why I gave up

[carolegif]

On the continent the nurses only do the medical stuff, all the other care (washing, changing, feeding etc) is done by the family. I don't know what happens when there is no family though, perhaps there are volunteers who do it. I think it goes back to when the nuns looked after the sick and they were not allowed to see people's bodies etc.

[TheOtherHalf]

I work in the catering at our local hospital and when my MIL was in Scarborough Hospital and then Bridlington hospital, it really opened my eyes about what went on. The staffing levels are so low that they cannot always attend to the patients as they would like. Our nurses here are wonderful but I think my MIL had a bit of preferential treatment because of me knowing the staff. I was able to ask things and for things that a lot of visitors think they cant do. I was amazed that a lot of young and student nurses were working 12 hour shifts. I wouldnt want to do that. And when peoples lives are in their hands, mistakes will happen as they are clearly not as alert as they should be

[murraymints]

I had a terrible time when caring for oh's dad;80 with alzheimers...he was admitted into hospital because he was in retention and needed catheter unblocking etc... ended up staying in for 6 months because of infections caught in hospital...mrsa..septicaemea etc etc... he was left to try and eat and take medication on his own..which he could not do...his catheter bag was fit to burst most of the time..his cries for help were often ignored..as i was too when i asked for assistance..nurses gathered around station chatting..drinking tea...NOT doing CARDEX or handeover I ass... I ended up emptying ALL the cath bags in his small room AnD helping him and other patients to eat/drink, one day after asking for the neighbouring chaps bed to be changed as he was lying in his own mess, I ended up doing it myself having been totally ignore over 2 hours and countless requests... I ended up taking dad home against their wishes..was threatened with police etc. when I told them of his neglect and the fact that they had to recover dad from the city centre wandering in his PJs..and they had not even noticed he was missing ?????..they were on my side...and dad got verymuch better at home in my care ! If you are over 75 they do not seem to care and treat the place as a waiting room for death..sooner the better attitude....in my experience...there...got that off my chest..I am sure there are good as well..I just have not seen that .

[LoftyLottie]

Good posting Rowan. To me all nurses should spend an enforced amount of time doing 'care worker' duties perhaps before they start 'learning' all the technical and medical stuff. It would sort the wheat from the chaff. Those that don't like doing it shouldn't continue in the profession, which is, after all, a caring profession.

[LoftyLottie]

Murraymints, your experience sounds very similar to mine. They gladly moved my mother to a private room, probably to get me out of the way!!

[New Judge]

I heard an article on Radio 4 this morning on this topic. There was an interview with a chap whose mother lay dying in hospital, and when he visited her he found dried saliva encrusted round her mouth and she was lying in her own faeces.

On came the hospital’s “manager” (or whatever she was). Despite all the meticulous record keeping and box ticking to which NHS services are subject they had been unable to identify the individuals responsible for the neglect. Then out came the usual platitudes “...terribly sorry for the anguish”, “...a thorough investigation” etc. etc. Not unusually, but most telling of all in this particular case was “...and we hope that as a result we can learn lessons from this experience.”
What? WHAT???

Just how much education and how many lessons does it take to teach NHS workers (and more particularly their managers) that people in hospital very often are old, they very often are vulnerable, they very often are incontinent and very often do need cleaning up and generally assisted with their everyday functions?

Have we only just started running hospitals? Are we still learning about basic bodily functions with which patients might just need a bit of help when they are ill? No we have not. And this type of thing was unheard of when hospitals were run my matrons, not by “here today, gone (to richer pastures) tomorrow” executives.

[rowanwitch]

lottie I agree, I have found almost without exception the best nurses I have worked around came into the proffession via the care assistant/auxillary route....they understood what the job entailed and weren't too 'important' to wipe bums, change sheets or hold someones head while they vomit.... I came via the academic route...never felt as good or natural a nurse as my ex care asst colleagues

[LoftyLottie]

Absolutely agree with all you say on this New Judge.

[pa___ul3]

R1, you really aren't thinking this through, each nurse has an area to manage, with a list of things that need doing, if there is not enough time for everything to get done by x nurses, how does it get done? I know first things first patients shouldn't starve... this is an extreme example but it's the one you're using to suggest elderly patients are being deliberately mistreated.
and Rowan, I see your point with that, but she's 3rd year now and has plenty of experience covering the healthcare tasks, she has no qualms with those tasks in themselves and she loves speaking to the patients, but she needs to learn, she needs the experience in 'nursing' for which she is in placement. The reason I mentioned this was as an indication of the staffing levels.
My sister's a physio's assistant in another hospital and she's been told she'll regularly be asked to cover healthcare and some basic nursing duties. It's basically 'all hands on deck'.

[rowanwitch]

Also why so many staff who want to 'nurse' are now attracted to areas like ITU where before they would say it was technical not proper nursing....it's the only place where staffing ratios mean total care can be given...from looking after a life support machine (ventilator) to clearing the snot from someones nose

[R1Geezer]

look at the other examples above paul and tell be it's not instutionalised hatred.

[seadogg]

Bravo Lottie and others! A as carer haven't time to write more but agree with every word

[pa___ul3]

it's not institutionalised hatred, it's complete mismanagement.

[rowanwitch]

Pa_ul3 perhaps she could use what she has learned so far to make things better...one of the skills she will need as a trained nurse is teaching....maybe she and some of her fellow learners could devise a teaching session on meeting basic care needs as an intellectual exercise...it could be demonstrated to the trained staff...and might make a few of them think about why they got into the business inthe first place

[joan19]

I think there are often communication difficulties, and older people were brought up not to complain readily. But when some cannot speak clearly, and cannot always understand what is said to them (and staff accents don't help!) it can be difficult to identify the problem.

[rowanwitch]

Actually its mostly staff are tire, disheartened and burnt out from trying for years to provide care with no management support, insufficient staffing...poor skill mix....and having to work extra shifts to cover their areas as posts are always being frozen due to budget constraints or are too specialised to attract new people to the senior staff nurse and sister/chargenurse roles who might bring new ideas and energy to the area... What usually happens one of the existing demoralised staff gets the promotion but nothing changes so resistance to change increases and the down hill spiral continues