A Baby's Human Rights

[naomi24]

Both Jews and Muslims lop bits off their young male children, not for medical reasons, but because their religions demand it, so a hypothetical question. If a case were brought before the European Court of Human Rights claiming that this practice is in violation of a human being's right to decide what happens to his body, what do you think the outcome would be?

[naomi24]

//so if you dont know if it exists or not you go straight to believing it doesnt?//

No, you examine the evidence, and in the case of the Koran the evidence doesn't stack up. Much of it is copied from other earlier sources, and it contains many errors. Therefore it cannot possibly be 'the infallible word of God'.

[sith123]

that is because it was the earlier sources...as muslims, we believe in the torah, bible but we believe they have been changed over time to support the beliefs of judaism and christianity.

and if the evidence does not way up, how come so many people are muslims and are converting, they cant all be stupid?

[boxtops]

morning, sith :-)

[sith123]

morning boxtops :)

[naomi24]

Sith, //that is because it was the earlier sources...as muslims, we believe in the torah, bible but we believe they have been changed over time to support the beliefs of judaism and christianity. //

Why do you believe that? Where's the evidence? If you're saying the Koran contains errors because the bible contains errors, you're rather proving my point, aren't you? Muslims claim that the Koran is the unalterable word of Allah, but if you concede that it contains errors (and if you look at it honestly, you have no alternative) then you concede that Allah makes mistakes.

//and if the evidence does not way up, how come so many people are muslims and are converting//

Because they don't weigh the evidence. They believe what other people tell them - and they believe what they want to believe - just as you do.

[sith123]

naomi, again, you are putting words in my mouth, i never said the quran has been changed, i said bible and torah, where did i write quran?

[naomi24]

Sith, there is no 'again'. I didn't say that and I haven't put words into your mouth at any time. You said that the Koran contains errors because the bible and torah have been changed.

//that is because it was the earlier sources...as muslims, we believe in the torah, bible but we believe they have been changed over time to support the beliefs of judaism and christianity. //

I actually asked for your evidence of those changes.

[sith123]

1. i never said the quran contains errors

2. we believe they have changed, that is why there is islam, we believed the torah, but it got changed, we believed the bible it got changed, we now believe the quran and in the last messenger. that has not been changed and will never be as allah wills it.

[naomi24]

Sith, //i never said the quran contains errors//

Now hang on. I said - speaking of the Koran - //Much of it is copied from other earlier sources, and it contains many errors. //

And you said // that is because it was the earlier sources...as muslims, we believe in the torah, bible but we believe they have been changed over time to support the beliefs of judaism and christianity.//

So what are you talking about?

[boxtops]

The Bible hasn't changed - it may have had other translations (and revised versions) but the stories etc are still the same.

I guess you could say the same of the Qu'ran - there are always going to be nuances lost when you translate anything from Arabic.

IMO the Holy Books remain the same in essence, however they are interpreted by others.

[sith123]

earlier sources being the torah and bible, the quran is not copied from them it is a different book that has not been changed, what are you talking about? neither did i mention islam, i said christianity and judaism so if i did not mention islam, i did not say the quran has been changed

[bednobs]

it is simple - the baby can't chose what happens to it's body when they are z baby, so the parent's wishes happen. Same for those religions that don't believe in (say) blood transfusions

[naomi24]

Boxy, no the bible hasn't changed, but where the Koran is concerned, the 'stories' - even though in the main they have been 'filched' from the bible - aren't the only problem. Look at the wonky science, much of which has also been 'filched' from earlier works. That needs no interpretation. It is quite simply wrong.

Sith, see my reply to Boxy. With all due respect you need to study more before you argue here - or at least trawl back and read some of the previous threads in R&S where all this has been discussed.

[craft1948]

So if circumcision is down to religion how come so many Aussies are circumsized?
A female Australian colleague came over a few years ago and was amazed that circumcision was not the norm here...............

[naomi24]

Boxy, amendment there. The Old Testament hasn't changed.

[naomi24]

Craft, maybe they go along with the hygiene thing. Never having discussed lopping bits off 'bits' with an Australian, I don't really know. ;o)

However, for Jews and Muslims it's a religious 'requirement'.

[sith123]

naomi, with all due respect, what i said was quite clear and if you ask any muslim they would agree, the bible and torah have been changed, but how does that mean the qurans changed? it doesnt.

[jomifl]

Craft.. can you back up your implied high circumcision rate amongst Australian men with any figures. Your female colleague wasn't Jewish by any chance?

[NOX]

I'd imagine Jomifl it's like the Americans, just done as a matter of course, as it was / is for so long there. Never studied other men's bits too much so I have to say that's merely an assumption;-)

[jomifl]

Here is some relevant information;-
The foreskin, or prepuce, is the most sensitive part of the penis. Circumcision is the amputation of the foreskin, which causes severe physical and psychological pain, including permanent loss of sexual function and long-term emotional pain response. Male circumcision is considered a form of genital mutilation by many human rights organizations, including the Attorneys for the Rights of the Child, Doctors Opposing Circumcision, Intact America, Jews Against Circumcision, Jews for the Rights of the Child, the National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers, the National Organization of Restoring Men, and the Whole Network.

No medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision. The latest October 2010 statement from the Royal Australian College of Physicians affirms this position: