On Being Raised With Religion.

[chrisgel]

I've just read this article and although it's not a new idea it seems to have pressed the Mails "Outrage" button.

I was raised as a catholic and can remember, even at primary school, doubting what I was told.
Anyone have views on this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2312813/Richard-Dawkins-Forcing-religion-children-child-abuse-claims-atheist-professor.html

[mikey4444]

I was also brought up as a Catholic, in the 50's and 60's. I am not sure what its like these days, as I am now an atheist but I now realise that we were told an awful lot of complete, relatively harmless guff.

I remember asking a Nun on the teaching staff what Heaven was like. She asked me what my favourite thing to do was ? Well, I was only 7 but answered very honestly that eating my Mums Apple Pie with custard was one of my favourite ways to pass the time. The Nun then said that I could eat Apple Pie in Heaven 24 hours a day if I wanted ! So I grew up not really knowing exactly what Heaven was like but suspected that it probably smelled of apples.

On a Monday morning we used to bring our bright shiny (old) pennies in for The Black Babies collection. For our penny, we got a sticker to put on our savings card with a smiling black baby on it. I thought at the beginning that once we filled up the card, a black baby would be delivered to the door, probably by another Nun ( Nuns were a regular feature of my childhood. Even now, if I see a Nun with a collecting tin in the street, I find my hand going into my pocket to pull out a pound coin without even realising what I am doing ) This was terribly exciting as I had a little brother but he was very white and anyway there weren't any black children in our street and I wanted to be the first person that had one.

Religion in general was discussed in a very narrow way at my Catholic Primary School in North London. We were the good guys as Catholics. All other people, who believed in Jesus were Protestants. I was at least 18 before I realised that there were any such things as Baptists, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventists, etc, etc. We didn't talk about Jews very much as They Killed Jesus. I don't remember ever hearing about Muslims although they must have existed I suppose. Everybody else on earth were usually heathens and normally black.

The cane was a regular feature at our school. I don't think I was any naughtier than any other boy but I saw my fair share of it, mostly for pushing unpleasant boys into the girls toilets at playtime. For some reason that was considered a huge sin. If you were lucky you got caned by one of the Friars that worked in the school. They at least cared about the tenderness of a boys bottom.

( I know what you all must be thinking but I can honestly say that nothing "unnatural" ever happened to me at the hand of a representative of the Church, ever. Nor did I know any other boy that anything happened to either )

But if you were really unlucky, you got caned my Sister Bridgitt. She had muscles that Popeye wouldn't have been ashamed of, and she took a run-up that a triple jumper wouldn't have thought excessive. When you got caned by Sister B, it stung for the rest of the day. A lot.

As a little boy I believed everything that I was told by a grown-up, including plainly daft things like God being three different people, Jesus feeding the multitude with a few loaves and fishes, etc. In north London where I lived, I had lots of Jewish friends and they thought that it was hilarious that Jesus didn't use caterers. Samuels mother said that something along the lines of " Oy veigh...so we have all day to make sandwiches already ? "

All in all it was a happy childhood. I was a good little Catholic boy, learning my Catechism and serving on the Altar. For our instructional classes for the First Holy Communion, we had a really funny and jolly Priest from India, black as your hat, who told us all about his homeland. I wanted so much to go and see India as a result, and still do.

I have nothing to compare my childhood to, but I am still glad that I had the Catholic upbringing, even though I am no longer a believer. It gave me a very good moral foundation which I am sure has helped me in life.

I am very nearly 60 now and I can't remember much else !

[chrisgel]

I apologise for having to leave this thread as I would have liked to comment further.
I can only speak to mt experience as a schoolchild in the 50's. But believe me being taught in a catholic school was a horrendous experience where children were threatened with hell if they didn't go to confession on Saturday and communion on Sunday.
I remember going to school on Mondays was always an ordeal because we would be quizzed about our attendance at mass by the teachers who we knew would have been there.
I also recall the moment serious doubts occured to me when the concept of Limbo was explained to us. As a child of 9 or 10 even I could see the flaws in that.
IMO religion should play no part in the education of children. If parents want to bring children up in a particular faith then I suppose they must be allowed to do so, but, I believe that religion has no place in education and that it stultifies the minds of children at the very age when they are curious and malleable to ideas.
In short telling children that "God did it" instead of providing answers is abuse.

[Ric.ror]

To be honest I find the rabidly atheists to be just as blinkered as the evangelical of any religion
Whatever happened to live and let live

[Peter Pedant]

.

I note that Prof Dawkins sensibly seems not to have mentioned to Al Jazeera his opinions on what it would be like to brought up a Muslim.

[Ric.ror]

Mikey4444 - I think your referring to the good Shepard fund
Once you filled your card you got to name the child
I always choose 'Sharon'

[joko]

"bereft of the consolations of religion" ...?

so you fill a childs head with nonsense - some of pretty frightening - for 'consolation'?

you think telling a child they could face an eternity of hell, its body is unclean, sex is wrong, that they are being watched at all times, their thoughts are bad, god may smite them, etc etc - the list is endless - is consolation?

the 'knowledge' that 'god loves them' is hardly comforting in the face of the list of horrific acts various gods have supposedly committed - i mean the flood (killing EVERYONE), is presented in story books as a good tale!
the list of atrocities is also endless and horrible.

but hey, you have the pleasure of praying for forgiveness and praying for bad things not to happen to you, to make up for all that!
praying is of course useless - but hey, its good of god to allow you to do that, at least its something....

i fail to see any consolation in it whatsoever.

[jomifl]

Ric.ror, Are you going to explain how your view of the 'rabidly atheists' came about or are you just going to leave us not really caring?

[mikey4444]

Ric.ror....was it called the Good Shepard Fund ? I really can't remember. I do recall that not lining up with your penny was frowned upon, so there was a good deal of emotional bullying going on, ie " no penny today then young Michael I see " in an Irish accent.

I also got a sticky tongue from licking all those pictures.

I have just remembered another thing about that time. When we were preparing for our Confirmation, we were allowed to choose a Confirmation name and it was to be a Saints name. Now I had a older friend who lived up the road who I worshipped, as little boys are wont to do. He was my hero and he was called Russell. I drove poor Father Low quite mad, as he tried and tried but just couldn't find any bloody Saint called Russell.

I wasn't happy but I had to settle for Martin instead. I had no idea of who he was. I think I got him mixed up with Saint Nicholas. Actually it wasn't until quite recently that I discovered that Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of prostitutes ! I certainly do not remember being taught THAT at St Bernadette's Catholic Primary School ! ( sounds too much like protestant I suppose ! )

[jim360]

joko - you can paint a far nicer vision of religion if you try. All of those who emphasise the fear and damnation part of it are obviously not nice people, but most people these days tend to focus on the "God loves you" aspect. It amy still be 'nonsense' but don't pretend that it's always taught as a "scare a kid into obeying you" nonsense.

[joko]

jim - i didn't say all, did i?

i did also acknowledge that you are taught that jesus loves you of course etc - but there is often an underlying current of fear. and even if you are not taught the scary stuff, its all there is black and white to make your own mind up.
the child may be too young to fully understand it, so sometimes these things can seem utterly terrifying to them.

the problem is enough of those 'not very nice people' are teaching it in this way, using fear to control the kids, enough to make it a problem and enough to cause people to be brought up with inbuilt neurosis.

[jomifl]

You can see a fine example of the effect of being raised under the influence of religion in the Boston bombing....

[naomi24]

Andy-Hughes, //As you know - I attend Mass weekly. I do not take communion.//

Yes, I do know you attend Mass every week, but you’ve also said that you sometimes take pleasure (or words to that effect) in accepting communion and in allowing the priest to bless you – and I know of no genuine atheist who would subject himself to either.

Ricror, //Whatever happened to live and let live//

Religion happened to live and let live.

[jim360]

I go to a chapel service at my college a couple of times, and up to recently also took communion. That was mainly because it's a serice attended by the public too and I felt as a college member I ought to take communion etc. as "part of the show". In the end I felt it to be hypocritical to do so. Still wil go to one or two services, the music is lovely.

Ive always felt that we should be thankful to all the people insp

[jim360]

...inspired by religion in a way that enriched our culture. Music, art, architecture, sculpture. etc.. Pity that culture has come at a price for all the evils of religions over the years, but then humans would be nasty anyway.

[jomifl]

Jim, I don't think those artists, musicians etc. were actually inspired by religion, it was just that the church sponsored their creativity, which is not quite the same thing. It's not too far removed from a bank sponsoring a football tournament in order to influence the masses for their own selfish purposes..

[jim360]

Atheism was virtually unheard of up until the last century or so. I think we can be pretty sure that most people writing music before then were religious. Some of them very much so.

[jomifl]

Jim, very few people had the courage to express doubts in the existance of god. The poet shelley was vilified and reduced to poverty by the efforts of those ever luvin' christians for expressing his doubts and he came from an influential family.

[naomi24]

Andy-Hughes, my mistake. I’ve checked that out and you didn’t say you accept communion. You haven’t been ‘confirmed’, so you can’t. Instead, you approach the priest and cross your arms over your chest as a signal to the priest, who then places his hand on your arm or head and blesses you. Sorry, but that just doesn’t gel with atheism. It’s enough to get any atheist worth his salt reaching for the sick bucket.

[naomi24]

Jim, do you need to wonder why? Look at history.

[jim360]

Of course atheism was suppressed or discouraged. But there's no point in denying that there was a large body of people who were a) religious and b) very important for modern society, be it enriching our culture or our science.