ChatterBank2 mins ago
Heaven & Hell
78 Answers
I asked this previously on the Body & Soul topic, but it would be interesting to ask it again here, as I presume there's more interest in such matters:-
Are you hopeful / worried about going to Heaven / Hell?
Are you hopeful / worried about going to Heaven / Hell?
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one minute its your faith, next its a fact, then its a prophecy....
as soon as you accept that it is NOT fact just because it is written in a book, and that it is merely your beliefs the happier you will be.
none of what you said is your words - you are just quoting parrot fashion, and every time someone brings up a good point you just trot out another page.
i have no problem with what you believe - really doesn't matter to me - however your continual assertion that all this is fact, and we are all doomed is a bit lame.
as soon as you accept that it is NOT fact just because it is written in a book, and that it is merely your beliefs the happier you will be.
none of what you said is your words - you are just quoting parrot fashion, and every time someone brings up a good point you just trot out another page.
i have no problem with what you believe - really doesn't matter to me - however your continual assertion that all this is fact, and we are all doomed is a bit lame.
Theland, I'll repeat.You think that INFINITE punishment for FINITE wrong doings is just? And ,pray tell, how can I be happy in your heaven when your psycho god is roasting my non believing friends and family in his eternal BBQ?
Talking of heaven, why (according to the bible) is god going to make a new earth if you are all going upstairs,so to speak?
Talking of heaven, why (according to the bible) is god going to make a new earth if you are all going upstairs,so to speak?
Wizard69 - God tells us through His word that all men are imperfect, that is, guilty of sin.
The punishment is death. Eternal sepearation from God.
Religion is mans attempt to reconcile himself to God, (good works, ornate ceremomies, sacrifice).
God rejects this. However, God is love, and loves us so much that He provides the solution, the man Jesus Christ, who lived a perfect life, free from sin, and was therefore able to take upon himself, our sin, and take the punishment for it. Indoing so, He gave us his righteousness, all we have to do is accept it. But we have a free choice, we can reject it.
The infinite punishment is for sin against an infinite being, God. The punishment is eternal separation from Him.
How can you be happy knowing of your unsaved friends? The commission Christ gave us is to warn people now, to come to him for forgivenenss, but we can never judge for ourselves whether this or that person went to heaven or hell. We are instructed to work out our own salvation in our relationship with God. Tell others, yes, but not judge them. Who knows what God will do in a persons final moments of life? It's not for us to judge.
The punishment is death. Eternal sepearation from God.
Religion is mans attempt to reconcile himself to God, (good works, ornate ceremomies, sacrifice).
God rejects this. However, God is love, and loves us so much that He provides the solution, the man Jesus Christ, who lived a perfect life, free from sin, and was therefore able to take upon himself, our sin, and take the punishment for it. Indoing so, He gave us his righteousness, all we have to do is accept it. But we have a free choice, we can reject it.
The infinite punishment is for sin against an infinite being, God. The punishment is eternal separation from Him.
How can you be happy knowing of your unsaved friends? The commission Christ gave us is to warn people now, to come to him for forgivenenss, but we can never judge for ourselves whether this or that person went to heaven or hell. We are instructed to work out our own salvation in our relationship with God. Tell others, yes, but not judge them. Who knows what God will do in a persons final moments of life? It's not for us to judge.
Theland.With all respect you are dodging the question.The people that I speak about are all ready dead (and that includes my much loved father).The bible is adamant that unless a man is born again he cannot enter heaven.The people that I speak about were NOT born again christians.Further more, the bible makes it clear that those that will be "saved" are in a minority.To say that we dont know what god does in the final moments of a mans life is skirting the issue.HOW CAN I BE HAPPY IN HEAVEN WHEN GOD IS TORTURING MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS?
And if god is so merciful wouldnt it be a merciful thing to simply annhilhiate a mans soul upon death rather than cast it into a torture chamber?After all god is OMNIPOTENT so theres no reason that he cant . If you say otherwise then you are surly lessening gods power.
And if god is so merciful wouldnt it be a merciful thing to simply annhilhiate a mans soul upon death rather than cast it into a torture chamber?After all god is OMNIPOTENT so theres no reason that he cant . If you say otherwise then you are surly lessening gods power.
Wizard69 - I have lost both of my parents, my father just last year. I know how you feel about this.
Before we get to the stage where we cry out, "This cannot be! It is unjust", we have to go back and establish in our own hearts, if there is indeed a God Creator.
Not believing in Him does not affect His existence or non existence. He either is, or is not, and we have to decide on what evidence there is before us.
The first stumbling block is the creation itself. Did it just happen on its own? If it did then our eventual annhialation is assured. If it was indeed created by an intelligent designer, God, then we need to find out who He is and what He wants.
Surely, up to this point, I haven't said anything wrong? I'll continue soon.
Before we get to the stage where we cry out, "This cannot be! It is unjust", we have to go back and establish in our own hearts, if there is indeed a God Creator.
Not believing in Him does not affect His existence or non existence. He either is, or is not, and we have to decide on what evidence there is before us.
The first stumbling block is the creation itself. Did it just happen on its own? If it did then our eventual annhialation is assured. If it was indeed created by an intelligent designer, God, then we need to find out who He is and what He wants.
Surely, up to this point, I haven't said anything wrong? I'll continue soon.
This supreme being, reveals Himself as He pleases, and does not allow Himself to be observed by the unconcerned, the casual tourist.
But, He reveals Himself, first through his creation, then through His prophets, who are inspired to write down and inform the world what they have had revealed to them.
A tool for doing this is prophecy. People can judge for themselves whether or not the Bible prophecies are 100% accurate or not. I believe they are.
I used to take the Bible stories with a huge pinch of salt, but not anymore. They make far more sense read literally.
When one of Christs disciples raised a question about another disciple, Jesus admonished him, and said, "What is it to you? YOU follow me!"
We may agree or disagree, but God makes the rules, our choice is to follow them or not.
But, He reveals Himself, first through his creation, then through His prophets, who are inspired to write down and inform the world what they have had revealed to them.
A tool for doing this is prophecy. People can judge for themselves whether or not the Bible prophecies are 100% accurate or not. I believe they are.
I used to take the Bible stories with a huge pinch of salt, but not anymore. They make far more sense read literally.
When one of Christs disciples raised a question about another disciple, Jesus admonished him, and said, "What is it to you? YOU follow me!"
We may agree or disagree, but God makes the rules, our choice is to follow them or not.
God wants us to have a relationship with Him, but He doesn't force the issue. We make the choice.
I am not a theologian, I wish I had more brains to articulate what I believe, but I would urge you to use your computer to browse some Christian web sites to get the answers. I'm not opting out saying this, but you'll appreciate that time and space are also factors here.
I am not a theologian, I wish I had more brains to articulate what I believe, but I would urge you to use your computer to browse some Christian web sites to get the answers. I'm not opting out saying this, but you'll appreciate that time and space are also factors here.
I'm new to AB, but I'm surprised at the tone of some of the replies I've had.
I rant, I preach, I'm sick, etc etc and that's because I believe there is everlasting life to be had, and would like others to share in it.
That doesn't make me a bad person.
But, It's enlightening to see how talking about God touches raw nerves. I think deep down most people, no matter how much they try to convince themselves to the contrarary, have a sneaky feeling that there is, "something more." There is.
I rant, I preach, I'm sick, etc etc and that's because I believe there is everlasting life to be had, and would like others to share in it.
That doesn't make me a bad person.
But, It's enlightening to see how talking about God touches raw nerves. I think deep down most people, no matter how much they try to convince themselves to the contrarary, have a sneaky feeling that there is, "something more." There is.
A guy named Tony Pearce was an atheist, and a Marxist, and taught in a secondary school. His story is enlightening, as he is now a Christian, has authored several books, and runs his own ministry, "Light For The Last Days." Look him up on Google and write to him, for three quid you can even subscribe to his quarterly magazine! He once held views that were just like yours, but he is a far more intelligent person than me and can articulate the answers to your queries much better than I.
I am a very poor example of a Christian, I get things wrong, I behave wrong, but that is inviting criticism of me, not of Christianity.
It's like looking at a burglar and concluding that we have a bad society with bad laws becuse you have seen him and his antics.
I know the truth, but just don't seem to convey the message in a convincing way, and I certainly don't live up to what I believe. I'm a much better person than I once was, but far far from perfect, or even resembling anything that God wants me to be.
But the message of Christianity is too precious to keep silent. Everybody should at least investigate its claims.
It's like looking at a burglar and concluding that we have a bad society with bad laws becuse you have seen him and his antics.
I know the truth, but just don't seem to convey the message in a convincing way, and I certainly don't live up to what I believe. I'm a much better person than I once was, but far far from perfect, or even resembling anything that God wants me to be.
But the message of Christianity is too precious to keep silent. Everybody should at least investigate its claims.
I accept that I am not perfect (whatever that is supposed to be). In acknowledging that I am a limited being I do not find any value in living like a leach by virtue of another man's blood and death. That is the value system of a thief and a murderer whether or not the victim is a willing participant. Instead of wallowing in my own guilt for not living up to an impossible standard, I strive to fulfill the responsibility I have to pay for my mistakes and make recompense as best I am able.
If my understanding of reality is flawed and I deserve to end up burning for an eternity in �Hell� so be it. This would ultimately be preferable to pretending that I am somehow superior because I refused to conform to the evidence of reality as it is presented to my mind. If my understanding of reality is so totally convoluted as that then how could I in good conscience bow down to a �God� who could not get it right the first time.
If a god exists and it is as described in your book than the universe is an evil place and �God� is by far the most evil thing in it. In comparison �God� makes Lucifer appear an angel. But that is only my interpretation of the literal meaning of the Bibles text. Whether in spite of (or because of) its ambiguity and contradictions, I do not see how anyone can arrive at a reasonably moral translation. But then I am obviously blinded by the �light�. ;-)
If my understanding of reality is flawed and I deserve to end up burning for an eternity in �Hell� so be it. This would ultimately be preferable to pretending that I am somehow superior because I refused to conform to the evidence of reality as it is presented to my mind. If my understanding of reality is so totally convoluted as that then how could I in good conscience bow down to a �God� who could not get it right the first time.
If a god exists and it is as described in your book than the universe is an evil place and �God� is by far the most evil thing in it. In comparison �God� makes Lucifer appear an angel. But that is only my interpretation of the literal meaning of the Bibles text. Whether in spite of (or because of) its ambiguity and contradictions, I do not see how anyone can arrive at a reasonably moral translation. But then I am obviously blinded by the �light�. ;-)
Theland, you are very dismissive of evolutionary theory, according it the status of a "faith" or only a "theory". If you wish to have an informed debate with people, I would strongly suggest that you educate yourself a little more in the myriad of facts and evidence that support evolution.
Rocks date fossils and fossils date rocks? Hardly.... this is a completely incorrect assertion, and if that represents your understanding of paleontology and evolution, it is little wonder you are so dismissive of it.
You urge all of us "unbelievers" to look at christian websites... I would strongly urge all of you evangelical believers to examine a few evolution websites!
As for the truth of biblical prophecy... I have looked at more than a few, and what it amounts to is people painting an interpretation upon a phrase or a statement from the bible... You see what you want to see, nothing more.
Someone else mentioned it, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs, and those that support the premise of God can supply none.
Rocks date fossils and fossils date rocks? Hardly.... this is a completely incorrect assertion, and if that represents your understanding of paleontology and evolution, it is little wonder you are so dismissive of it.
You urge all of us "unbelievers" to look at christian websites... I would strongly urge all of you evangelical believers to examine a few evolution websites!
As for the truth of biblical prophecy... I have looked at more than a few, and what it amounts to is people painting an interpretation upon a phrase or a statement from the bible... You see what you want to see, nothing more.
Someone else mentioned it, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs, and those that support the premise of God can supply none.
mibn2cweus - Thank you for your thoughtful and considered reply.
The value system you criticise, is one of sacrifice, Christs loving sacrifice for us. We are thieves and murderers if you like, because without our sin, no penalty would have had to be paid, (Christs death on the cross), but He did it for us, because we are incapable of saving ourselves.
I too take full responsibility for my mistakes, and pay for them in this life, but I am guilty of an offence against an infinite being, so unless I accept His forgiveness, I remain infinitely guilty.
Christians should not consider themselves superior, for refusing to accept the materielistic reality as presented to them, but on the contrarary, should consider themselves the servants of all, whilst believing in the totality of reality, material and spiritual, as revealed to them through lifes experiences, and the written word of God. Superiority has no place in the Christian life.
God did get it right first time. He knew that giving free will to His creation would involve acceptance and rejection, and the rejection would involve the fall of Man, and then Gods plan to redeem Man, as a display of his infinite love, and to His greater glory.
You are right to say that the universe is an evil place, as the whole of creation is corrupted, through sin, and the Bible explains this.
I doubt you have been "blinded by the light", but are simply exercising your God given free will.
The value system you criticise, is one of sacrifice, Christs loving sacrifice for us. We are thieves and murderers if you like, because without our sin, no penalty would have had to be paid, (Christs death on the cross), but He did it for us, because we are incapable of saving ourselves.
I too take full responsibility for my mistakes, and pay for them in this life, but I am guilty of an offence against an infinite being, so unless I accept His forgiveness, I remain infinitely guilty.
Christians should not consider themselves superior, for refusing to accept the materielistic reality as presented to them, but on the contrarary, should consider themselves the servants of all, whilst believing in the totality of reality, material and spiritual, as revealed to them through lifes experiences, and the written word of God. Superiority has no place in the Christian life.
God did get it right first time. He knew that giving free will to His creation would involve acceptance and rejection, and the rejection would involve the fall of Man, and then Gods plan to redeem Man, as a display of his infinite love, and to His greater glory.
You are right to say that the universe is an evil place, as the whole of creation is corrupted, through sin, and the Bible explains this.
I doubt you have been "blinded by the light", but are simply exercising your God given free will.
LazyGun - You and I could throw evolution / creation web addresses at each other all day to prove this or that point, but time and space doesn't permit it. But, yes, I have indeed tried my best to investigate evolutionary claims.
Before we go down that road, the evolutionist has to explain away the Big Bang and the origin of life from inorganic matter, something scientist cannot do in the laboratory. These are clever people, trying to prove that it all happened in the absence of clever people!
Regarding bible prophecy, I'd like to come back to this in my next note to you.
Before we go down that road, the evolutionist has to explain away the Big Bang and the origin of life from inorganic matter, something scientist cannot do in the laboratory. These are clever people, trying to prove that it all happened in the absence of clever people!
Regarding bible prophecy, I'd like to come back to this in my next note to you.
Llamatron - Suspension of logic and reason? It makes more sense to me to believe in a cause for the effect that we call life / universe.
Why is it that in our Western European culture we are generally so dismissive of a spiritual dimension to reality? The world is full of pagan heathen beliefs that do not worship the true God, but still recognise our spirituality.
We are, I believe, conditioned to be too proud of our own self sufficiency to even begin to impartially investigate the concept of a creator God. To do so removes Man from the pinnacle of of the "evolutionary heap" and we don't seem to be able to contemplate that possibility.
Why is it that in our Western European culture we are generally so dismissive of a spiritual dimension to reality? The world is full of pagan heathen beliefs that do not worship the true God, but still recognise our spirituality.
We are, I believe, conditioned to be too proud of our own self sufficiency to even begin to impartially investigate the concept of a creator God. To do so removes Man from the pinnacle of of the "evolutionary heap" and we don't seem to be able to contemplate that possibility.
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