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Heaven & Hell
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I asked this previously on the Body & Soul topic, but it would be interesting to ask it again here, as I presume there's more interest in such matters:-
Are you hopeful / worried about going to Heaven / Hell?
Are you hopeful / worried about going to Heaven / Hell?
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Wizard69 - One of the Wesley brothers, founders of Methodism, was once criticised for praying.
The critic said that answered prayer was mere coincidence, nothing more.
Wesley replied, well in that case, when he prayed, coincidences happened, and when he didn't, they didn't.
God speaks to us through prayer, through his written Word, and through other people.
Dave Allen the Irish comedian, was famed for his religious jokes. He once ended his programme by explaining how believers could open the Bible anywhere and find inspiration. He randomely opened the pages, and read a sentence, that was totally out of context, and meaningless. He got a great laugh from the audience.
But, by prayerfully searching the scriptures, and reading them often, Christians learn what is Gods' will in their lives. That is part of the relationship with God, who is spirit.
A lot of television evangelists, (money preachers), claim to hear from God and cajole their flock into parting with their cash - a get rich quick scheme for sure, so we are right to be sceptical when we hear claims about people hearing this or that.
However, the Bible claims that it is the inerrant Word of God, and so any message from wherever, must not ever contradict the scriptures. A message from God will always be in full agreement with the Bible.
The critic said that answered prayer was mere coincidence, nothing more.
Wesley replied, well in that case, when he prayed, coincidences happened, and when he didn't, they didn't.
God speaks to us through prayer, through his written Word, and through other people.
Dave Allen the Irish comedian, was famed for his religious jokes. He once ended his programme by explaining how believers could open the Bible anywhere and find inspiration. He randomely opened the pages, and read a sentence, that was totally out of context, and meaningless. He got a great laugh from the audience.
But, by prayerfully searching the scriptures, and reading them often, Christians learn what is Gods' will in their lives. That is part of the relationship with God, who is spirit.
A lot of television evangelists, (money preachers), claim to hear from God and cajole their flock into parting with their cash - a get rich quick scheme for sure, so we are right to be sceptical when we hear claims about people hearing this or that.
However, the Bible claims that it is the inerrant Word of God, and so any message from wherever, must not ever contradict the scriptures. A message from God will always be in full agreement with the Bible.
You know Theland a while ago you said something like Christianinty was not an intellectual pursuit.
This is pretty much the crux for all religions -
They require you to believe something.
At the heart of Science is the principal of disprovability - it must be possible to disprove something or it is not Science.
A scientific theory involves predictions that can be tested to see if it's true or not.
I can't do this with religions - I can go into the street and yell "God stike me with a lightning bolt if you exist" and all the religious people will say "Ah God doesn't like to be tested - it would stop faith".
There are many clever arguments that show the contradictions in religion but they are pointless because religious belief as you so rightly say is not intellectual. In many it's ingrained at an early age and lost in response to an emotional event. Often when people see great suffering and come to believe that no loving God would allow it.
If religion works for you I'm glad but I don't like to see children at an impressionable age being taught religion because I think it undermines rational thought.
I also have come to think that nobody who believes in an afterlife can ever value an individual human life in the same way as somebody who does not - after all it's not really the end is it?
This is pretty much the crux for all religions -
They require you to believe something.
At the heart of Science is the principal of disprovability - it must be possible to disprove something or it is not Science.
A scientific theory involves predictions that can be tested to see if it's true or not.
I can't do this with religions - I can go into the street and yell "God stike me with a lightning bolt if you exist" and all the religious people will say "Ah God doesn't like to be tested - it would stop faith".
There are many clever arguments that show the contradictions in religion but they are pointless because religious belief as you so rightly say is not intellectual. In many it's ingrained at an early age and lost in response to an emotional event. Often when people see great suffering and come to believe that no loving God would allow it.
If religion works for you I'm glad but I don't like to see children at an impressionable age being taught religion because I think it undermines rational thought.
I also have come to think that nobody who believes in an afterlife can ever value an individual human life in the same way as somebody who does not - after all it's not really the end is it?
LazyGun - The Bible is over 25% prophecy. These prophecies have mostly been fulfilled. Some are in the process of fulfillment, and others still lie in the future.
Yes, at first glance, the language can seem a bit obscure, but it doesn't require much digging to unearth the truth.
The purpose of Biblical prophecy, is for us to be told by God what events are going to happen, not necessarily when they will happen. This is so that when they unfold, we have proof of the accuracy of scripture, but we do not have a timeline or planner with which to organise ourselves. God wants us to be ever watchful and prepared, and giving us times and dates would detract from His purpose.
Yes, at first glance, the language can seem a bit obscure, but it doesn't require much digging to unearth the truth.
The purpose of Biblical prophecy, is for us to be told by God what events are going to happen, not necessarily when they will happen. This is so that when they unfold, we have proof of the accuracy of scripture, but we do not have a timeline or planner with which to organise ourselves. God wants us to be ever watchful and prepared, and giving us times and dates would detract from His purpose.
Jake-the-peg - Lots of points here so here goes.
None of us like to see our kids indoctrinated, as in some churches, where kids are taught fear. This is religion with submission to priestly authority. Not much freedom here, and blind obedience to a man made authority.
As a kid I knew people who were more afraid of the local priest than the police, so your point about indoctrination is accepted.
Every life is valuable, more so from a Christian perspective, as we know that this or that person is Gods creation, and we must value this life as much as our own.
You are right to say that we can't test God, not in the generally accepted meaning of the word. But God does not allow the casual observer to discover Him, but only those who seriously search for Him.
You can seriously search for God, without believing in Him at present, in the knowledge that the Bible promises that those who search for Him with all their mind heart and soul, will discover Him, through prayer, reading the scriptures, and from instruction discussion with believers.
There is such a vast amount of scientific and archaeological evidence to support the claims made in the Bible, that it cannot be simply written off as just another holy book like the koran or the book of mormon, and it costs you nothing to investigate it. I hope you do.
Just as flavour of the authenticity of the Bible, the history of the Jews, from secular and archaeological authorities, is nothing than fulfilled Bible prophecy, even down to accurate dating of events.
More of this later, I hope.
None of us like to see our kids indoctrinated, as in some churches, where kids are taught fear. This is religion with submission to priestly authority. Not much freedom here, and blind obedience to a man made authority.
As a kid I knew people who were more afraid of the local priest than the police, so your point about indoctrination is accepted.
Every life is valuable, more so from a Christian perspective, as we know that this or that person is Gods creation, and we must value this life as much as our own.
You are right to say that we can't test God, not in the generally accepted meaning of the word. But God does not allow the casual observer to discover Him, but only those who seriously search for Him.
You can seriously search for God, without believing in Him at present, in the knowledge that the Bible promises that those who search for Him with all their mind heart and soul, will discover Him, through prayer, reading the scriptures, and from instruction discussion with believers.
There is such a vast amount of scientific and archaeological evidence to support the claims made in the Bible, that it cannot be simply written off as just another holy book like the koran or the book of mormon, and it costs you nothing to investigate it. I hope you do.
Just as flavour of the authenticity of the Bible, the history of the Jews, from secular and archaeological authorities, is nothing than fulfilled Bible prophecy, even down to accurate dating of events.
More of this later, I hope.
Theland...I must agree with jake the peg here.If religion suits you, fine, but indoctrinating children with religion is child abuse in my book.All children are born atheists with no concept of god (or heaven /hell/sin/redemption)whatsoever.My own son is taught to think for himself.I know an 11 yr old girl who is scared sh1tless of going to hell because she has been brought up in a deeply religious houshold.Read that again Theland. AN 11 YEAR OLD CHILD WHO IS TERRIFIED OF YOUR HELL. Child abuse pure and simple and all in the name of religionHow many more kids are there that have been brain f****d for god? We live,we die and thats it.Game over.No hell to fry in, no heaven to play harps in.
Life is like a game of football or a game of snooker.It has meaning because it WILL end.A game of football that went on for ever would have no meaning at all.Likewise existing for ever would not have any meaning.
Life is like a game of football or a game of snooker.It has meaning because it WILL end.A game of football that went on for ever would have no meaning at all.Likewise existing for ever would not have any meaning.
wizard69 - Child abuse is outrageous whatever form it takes. The 11 year old girl has obviously been psychologically abused / neglected if she has been brought low to this sorry state.
You said she had been brought up in a deeply religious household. That tells me nothing. What do her parents actually believe? Are they C of E, RC, Jehovahs Witness, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu or whatever?
Man made religions thrive on fear. Look at RC beliefs of the equal authority of scripture AND tradition. Tradition? Yes, it is now accepted traditionally that popes are infallible, a stupid and dangerous doctrine, and if they're infallible, then they can threaten people with purgatory unless they submit to papal authority.
I mentioned earlier that I knew people who were more frightened of the priest than the police, similar to that poor 11 year old girl.
By taking the Bible, adding bits to it, leaving other bits out, and twisting its meaning, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa were able to justify apartheid, and using the same process, slavery was justified. So it is not the Bibles' fault if the scripture within it are used to abuse and control people.
You said she had been brought up in a deeply religious household. That tells me nothing. What do her parents actually believe? Are they C of E, RC, Jehovahs Witness, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu or whatever?
Man made religions thrive on fear. Look at RC beliefs of the equal authority of scripture AND tradition. Tradition? Yes, it is now accepted traditionally that popes are infallible, a stupid and dangerous doctrine, and if they're infallible, then they can threaten people with purgatory unless they submit to papal authority.
I mentioned earlier that I knew people who were more frightened of the priest than the police, similar to that poor 11 year old girl.
By taking the Bible, adding bits to it, leaving other bits out, and twisting its meaning, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa were able to justify apartheid, and using the same process, slavery was justified. So it is not the Bibles' fault if the scripture within it are used to abuse and control people.
Theland - You suggested that evolutionary theory was somehow invalidated because first the origin of the universe had to be explained and then the transition from inorganic matter to life. Why? You can offer no proof of the origin of the universe and the origin of life except to point in the direction of God and say "he done it Guv". No evidence, no rationale, no mechanism... just he done it.
Science at least posits a hypothesis and then tests that hypothesis to arrive at a theory supported by evidence... sure, we cannot say with absolute certainty NOW what the origin of the universe was, but that doesnt mean that we wont be able to in 10 years, or 50 or whatever. As for the transition from inorganic matter to life... here, you are dismissive of science, saying that scientists cannot replicate it... so all of a sudden scientists are omnipotent?
It may take many 1000s of scientists many decades of research to find the answer... but I am confident that they will.
Biblical prophecy.... I repeat... prophecy is subjective, and is all about assigning a real life event to something that was written... and anyway, from which Bible? The OT, The NT, the Talmud? How do we know that the translations from aramaic and hebrew to Greek and then to English were absolutely correct in its entirety? What about the revisions during Constantines time, and later the KJV?One of the prophecies suggested that the universe would be found to orbit the earth..... do you believe that one?
I have a real dislike of evangelical or fundamental belief in religion... Someone far better with words than me once said something like "Good people do good things, and bad people do bad things... but only religion can get good people to do bad things". The existence of God is a hypothesis... and one not supported by fact.
Science at least posits a hypothesis and then tests that hypothesis to arrive at a theory supported by evidence... sure, we cannot say with absolute certainty NOW what the origin of the universe was, but that doesnt mean that we wont be able to in 10 years, or 50 or whatever. As for the transition from inorganic matter to life... here, you are dismissive of science, saying that scientists cannot replicate it... so all of a sudden scientists are omnipotent?
It may take many 1000s of scientists many decades of research to find the answer... but I am confident that they will.
Biblical prophecy.... I repeat... prophecy is subjective, and is all about assigning a real life event to something that was written... and anyway, from which Bible? The OT, The NT, the Talmud? How do we know that the translations from aramaic and hebrew to Greek and then to English were absolutely correct in its entirety? What about the revisions during Constantines time, and later the KJV?One of the prophecies suggested that the universe would be found to orbit the earth..... do you believe that one?
I have a real dislike of evangelical or fundamental belief in religion... Someone far better with words than me once said something like "Good people do good things, and bad people do bad things... but only religion can get good people to do bad things". The existence of God is a hypothesis... and one not supported by fact.
LazyGun - Well you and I are both in the same boat then. Neither you or I were around to witness the origin of the universe.
So the "Big Bangers" have a faith, in the Big Bang, and I have a creation faith. Two faiths, not one faith and one science.
If you are prepared to give scientists another 10 or 50 years to reach a point of certainty, would it not be fair to extend the same to creationists?
You are confident that they will find the answer. How? What is your confidence based on? You must have faith in them indeed.
The Bible translations are quite accurate from the original Hebrew and Greek. That is a subject all in itiself, but the bits and pieces of Dead Sea Scrolls that were found were identical in wording to what we have today.
Yes, inaccuracies can creep in, but from what I have read, even if some meaning is lost in translation, our Bibles are about 98% accurate.
Naturally, I am interested to know where it says that the universe orbits the earth. But, Hubble found that when he looked into the heavens to discover Galaxies, he found them receding, according to the red shift, in all directions from earth, or rather, from our Galaxy. As an atheist, this disturbed him as he didn't believe in a position of special privelege. Don't know how he handled that one.
So the "Big Bangers" have a faith, in the Big Bang, and I have a creation faith. Two faiths, not one faith and one science.
If you are prepared to give scientists another 10 or 50 years to reach a point of certainty, would it not be fair to extend the same to creationists?
You are confident that they will find the answer. How? What is your confidence based on? You must have faith in them indeed.
The Bible translations are quite accurate from the original Hebrew and Greek. That is a subject all in itiself, but the bits and pieces of Dead Sea Scrolls that were found were identical in wording to what we have today.
Yes, inaccuracies can creep in, but from what I have read, even if some meaning is lost in translation, our Bibles are about 98% accurate.
Naturally, I am interested to know where it says that the universe orbits the earth. But, Hubble found that when he looked into the heavens to discover Galaxies, he found them receding, according to the red shift, in all directions from earth, or rather, from our Galaxy. As an atheist, this disturbed him as he didn't believe in a position of special privelege. Don't know how he handled that one.
Joko - I believe that the Roman Catholic church is a wicked institution, responsible for the deaths of millions down the centuries.
The magdalene laundries were an extension of this. I read a book last year from a former "Maggie" as these tortured souls were called. Even the Irish government was implicit in this evil.
Remarkably, the last Magdelene laundry only closed, in the U.S. in 1998.
This illustrates LazyGuns point of how corrupting religion can be.
The magdalene laundries were an extension of this. I read a book last year from a former "Maggie" as these tortured souls were called. Even the Irish government was implicit in this evil.
Remarkably, the last Magdelene laundry only closed, in the U.S. in 1998.
This illustrates LazyGuns point of how corrupting religion can be.
Why do creationists need another 10 years or so Theland? They already have their answers. I dont have faith that the scientists will find the answers, Theland, because faith is belief in the absence of evidence. I know because of the track record to date in explaining the world around us, the marvels of medicine, the elegance of engineering, and their progress in exploring and charting and explaining this galaxy we live in.
Hubble saw galaxies receding, and this disturbed him as an atheist? I havent heard this before.. do you have a link, or an article about this?
Hubble saw galaxies receding, and this disturbed him as an atheist? I havent heard this before.. do you have a link, or an article about this?
Theland...the girl I mentioned comes from a pentecostal family.Her family obviously love her but the teachings of the church have obviously scarred her.It makes no difference what the church is Theland, they all teach hell, and that to me is one sick doctrine.You still havnt answered my question.How can I be happy in heaven when god is burning my relatives in hell?
If you'r gonna debate people on here then you'r gonna have to answer their questions
If you'r gonna debate people on here then you'r gonna have to answer their questions
Theland said:
"By taking the Bible, adding bits to it, leaving other bits out, and twisting its meaning, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa were able to justify apartheid, and using the same process, slavery was justified. So it is not the Bibles' fault if the scripture within it are used to abuse and control people."
But isn't the Bible itself a result of centuries of mistranslations, editing, cutting and pasting by various religious and political leaders over the years?
"By taking the Bible, adding bits to it, leaving other bits out, and twisting its meaning, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa were able to justify apartheid, and using the same process, slavery was justified. So it is not the Bibles' fault if the scripture within it are used to abuse and control people."
But isn't the Bible itself a result of centuries of mistranslations, editing, cutting and pasting by various religious and political leaders over the years?
Wizard69 - The Bible teaches hell as a fact, and also heaven. The analogy would be to say that countries that have holiday resorts also have prisons, but you don't stop going there for your holiday.
I read the bible and it says heaven and hell exist. If I say that I don't believe that, does that affect their existence?
Belief therefore, dosn't affect the reality, the way "positive thinking" is supposed to.
Regarding the little girl, I can only say that her parents should have been very careful about her education, and apparently they were not. They have allowed her to dwell on the negative guilt ridden aspects of their beliefs, and not on the joyous hope in Jesus Christ that Christians are expected by god to have.
How can hell be a sick doctrine? It simply promotes the idea of consequences for our actions. That is something a lot of politicians should take on board in their crime and punishment legislation. In many areas we are so busy trying to understand criminals, that the punishment side gets neglected.
That little girl bothers me a lot. It shouldn't have been like that. At her age she should have been learning Bible stories, going to Sunday school, and having her sense of right and wrong reenforced. If a teacher in her local school taught in a way that upset the kids, they would be booted out of their job, and rightfully so. This girl is not a victim of what is taught in the Bible, but rather of her own parents insensitivity to her needs.
How can you be happy in heaven knowing your friends are not there. I'll put this in the next note.
I read the bible and it says heaven and hell exist. If I say that I don't believe that, does that affect their existence?
Belief therefore, dosn't affect the reality, the way "positive thinking" is supposed to.
Regarding the little girl, I can only say that her parents should have been very careful about her education, and apparently they were not. They have allowed her to dwell on the negative guilt ridden aspects of their beliefs, and not on the joyous hope in Jesus Christ that Christians are expected by god to have.
How can hell be a sick doctrine? It simply promotes the idea of consequences for our actions. That is something a lot of politicians should take on board in their crime and punishment legislation. In many areas we are so busy trying to understand criminals, that the punishment side gets neglected.
That little girl bothers me a lot. It shouldn't have been like that. At her age she should have been learning Bible stories, going to Sunday school, and having her sense of right and wrong reenforced. If a teacher in her local school taught in a way that upset the kids, they would be booted out of their job, and rightfully so. This girl is not a victim of what is taught in the Bible, but rather of her own parents insensitivity to her needs.
How can you be happy in heaven knowing your friends are not there. I'll put this in the next note.
How can you be happy in heaven knowing your unsaved friends aren't there?
I don't know how God proposes to do it, but he promises us that in heaven, all tears are wiped away, there is no death, no mourning, only the joy of being in His presence.
Now if I say, yes, but what about my Mum and Dad, (I have lost them both), I remember Jesus admonishing the disciple, who had asked about somebody else, saying, never mind what he is doing, YOU follow ME.
I am the created, how can I argue with my creator?
I can't judge God, and I can't judge where my Mum and Dad are, although I pray that they are in Gods care.
This is the way God wants us to be, to follow Him, and tell others about it.
Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, said recently on radio, that even after death, God can reconcile us to Himself. Well I don't know where that doctrine come from, maybe he was trying to offer comfort. I don't know.
All I do know, are Gods promises, and I rest in them.
I don't know how God proposes to do it, but he promises us that in heaven, all tears are wiped away, there is no death, no mourning, only the joy of being in His presence.
Now if I say, yes, but what about my Mum and Dad, (I have lost them both), I remember Jesus admonishing the disciple, who had asked about somebody else, saying, never mind what he is doing, YOU follow ME.
I am the created, how can I argue with my creator?
I can't judge God, and I can't judge where my Mum and Dad are, although I pray that they are in Gods care.
This is the way God wants us to be, to follow Him, and tell others about it.
Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, said recently on radio, that even after death, God can reconcile us to Himself. Well I don't know where that doctrine come from, maybe he was trying to offer comfort. I don't know.
All I do know, are Gods promises, and I rest in them.
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