Heaven & Hell

[Theland]

I asked this previously on the Body & Soul topic, but it would be interesting to ask it again here, as I presume there's more interest in such matters:-

Are you hopeful / worried about going to Heaven / Hell?

[Theland]

Llamatron - Quite simply, no. If you follow the history of Bible translation, the Essenes in Qumran for example, and the strict rules for copying the scriptures, then you will realise that our Bibles today are extremely true to the original manuscripts.

Translations differ in their emphasis on translating words, or phrases, or ideas, and so this is the translators problem, what to do to maintain accuracy, but making it readable in the contemporary language. Given these problems to overcome, the accuracy of our translations can be confidently accepted.

[Theland]

Joko - If you want to know the truth about the evil of the Roman Catholic church, visit a web site run by an ex priest, Richard Bennet, it is called Berean Beacon. There are videos of Richards sermons, and believe me, they are real eye openers.

No, those nuns did not have God, they had religion, there is a difference, I assure you. They perpetrated their crimes in the name of Holy Mother Church, the RC church run by the Vatican that is.

I have seen photographs of nuns in warsaw, helping to load Jewish kids into cattle wagons, next stop Auswitch. Hitler was assisted into power by a concordat signed with the Vatican. The massacres in Serbia in the 1940's were carried out by the "Ustazi" killer squads led by a psychopath named Pavelic, inder the authority of the local (Arch)bishop, Stepinac, whose embalmed body is now a religious icon, John Paul 2 prayed beofre it. Sick.

My mother was a Protestant, my father Roman Catholic, my son in law is RC as is my brother in law. I have no problem with peoples label, but big problems with Roman Catholicism itself.

[WaldoMcFroog]

You're all dirty heathens. The one true God is the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org) Praise his Noodly Appendage!

All other religions are patently false once you have seen the Truth that is Pastafarianism.

Ramen.

[chakka35]

Look folks, all you're doing is giving Theland more and more opportunities to inflict his tedious sermons on us. I think we should get back to his original question, which was about heaven and hell. So here goes:

Theland, I am an atheist who thinks that all religious belief is absurd, a betrayal of that intelligence that evolution has given us. Also, if your God actually existed and I met him in the street I would call the police in the hope of having him prosecuted for crimes against humanity.
This presumably means that I will go to hell, so could you describe that place for me so that I know what to expect?

By the same token you will no doubt go to heaven. Will you tell me what that is like also? After all, it should be part of my punishment to feel envious, while suffering in hell, of the wonderful time you'll be having.

So, some facts please.

[Theland]

Heaven is eternity in Gods presence, Hell is eternal separation from Him.

Anything beyond that tends to be speculative, but we are promised by Christ Himself, that Heaven will be a place of joy.

[chakka35]

Yes well, I expected a little sermon rather than a direct answer so I'm not too disappointed.
Never mind, all is well, it seems. Since you are presumably already in God's presence you must be in heaven. I am happy for you.
And since I am certainly separated from him, and intend to remain that way, I am already in hell. Well, I can tell you, as a happy and fulfilled fellow, surrounded by loving family and friends, hell is a lovely place - which will come as a surprise to religionists like you who have always had a gloomy view of it.
Thank you for your help.

[Theland]

A sermon? Ah, please! To tell you what I believe is not preaching a sermon surely?
An exchange of opinions, yes.
I don't exist in a vacuum you know, and have family and friends who share your view.

[chakka35]

Well, a sermon is not a normal exchange of views based on evidence, facts, reason and fine argument. It is a one-sided expression of religious belief, starting with the premise that there is a god of some sort with no case being made for the existence of that god. You started all this by asking what we think about going to heaven or hell, but when I ask you to describe those two places you lapse into what is just a eulogy for your god, leaving us none the wiser about what you are asking.

[Theland]

You can find out what I believe about what heaven and hell are like by simply looking it up in the Bible. That is the only source of the information I have, no more, no less.

I know therefore, that one is joyous, the other is not, and both are eternal.

I know that Disney world and Alcatraz both exist, even though I've never seen them. If I didn't believe in their existence, what difference would it make, to their existence? None.

[wizard69]

I also know that both Disneyworld and Alcatraz exist because they are both extremly well documented and thousands of people have been there and testified to there existance.That is slightly different than reading something in a book.Thats the difference.

[pugwashjw]

It is necessary to go to the Bible for your answer.
There is definitely a heaven, its the abode of Almighty God. And His angels.
But as for 'Hell', that is another thing.
Hell is the translation for the Greek word HADES.
And Revelation 20;14 says;
�And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.
So which one is the 'hot' place?
The Lake of Fire is mentioned at Rev.20;10. Its where Satan is cast.. So IT must be destruction.
That makes HADES something that will be destroyed. As such, it cannot be a permanent place of torment.
And because it is so closely associated with death, it equates with man's grave. Either in the ground or in the sea. and from which people will be resurrected. Revelation 20; 12,13.

[LazyGun]

Oh no,someone else who asserts the fact of heaven based upon a subjective interpretation of translated text only... no proofs, no logic, no reason... just "the book says", so of course it must be so.

[Llamatron]

I said this earlier in another thread but it's just as valid here:

Talk of the Bible always reminds me of the classic Goon sketch where Bluebottle asks Eccles what the time is.

What time is it?
8 o'clock.
How do you know?
I've got it written on a piece of paper.

[chakka35]

What a lovely analogy, Llamatron. It fits even closer when you look at the whole thing:

What time is it, Eccles?
Um, just a minute. I�ve got it written down here on a piece of paper. A nice man wrote the time down for me this morning.
Euh! Then why do you carry it around with you, Eccles?
Well, um, if anyone asks me the time I can show it to �em.
Wait a minute, Eccles my good man ---
What is it, fellow?
It�s writted on this piece of paper � what is eight o�clock, is writted.
I know that, my good fellow � that�s right, when I asked the man to write it down it was eight o�clock.
Well, then, supposing when somebody asks you the time it isn�t eight o�clock?
Well, then I don�t show it to them.
But how d�you know when it�s eight o�clock?
I�ve got it written down on a piece of paper�

Coming from the Goons we treat it as comic genius. But similar nonsense in the Bible we are supposed to revere. Mad world.

[zubair]

No i aint worried bout goin to heaven. but goin to hell yh defo. Coz datz da last place i would want to go . No seriously

[mibn2cweus]

Hell is definitely not the last place I would want to go. I was born and raised there and spent half my life reasoning my way out!

If there is one 'person' in this world who deserves to burn in Hell it is the one who would suggest to a child who has not yet learned to reason that that was their destiny by virtue of their attempts to reason, that they are doomed to sin by virtue of their birth, that they have no right to exist by virtue of their existence. This is the filthy secret that religion wishes to hide while damning us for our attempts to expose it. There is most certainly no merciful and benevolent 'God' as long as there are people allowed to go around spewing their anti-human, anti-life, anti-reality garbage and calling it "God's Word".

Religion is nothing more and nothing less than the glorification and worship of failure, weakness, sorrow, misery and death. People who hate human achievement and success should leave other people the hell alone. Wallow in your guilt and self-loathing if you must by yourself in the shadow of the fear that created it but get out of the way of those of us who are trying to make the most of the one life that only reason has given us any reason for living. My soul is not yours to save. Your soul is your sole responsibility. Save your own soul, if you still have on left.

[Theland]

mibn2cweus - Such anger in your last post! And quite right too! Religionists who use their belief system to control others through fear are clearly wrong. To inflict this on young innocent children is rightfully a source of anger. This is nothing less than cruelty.

I find a lot in common with you views, whilst maintaining my own Christian beliefs.

[mibn2cweus]

Theland, regarding the either / or aspect of the question that generated this thread, perhaps one of the fundamental decisions we must all make is whether to live in hope or fear of our own viability to face the challenges of existence as human beings. I chose hope as the other alternative can only lead to a self-fulfilling prophesy. As for heaven / hell I've experienced enough of both here on Earth to conclude that if there is a here-after I have already arrived.