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Cannot quite see why that was a personal and complex answer naomi24 - but fair enough, you have finally answered my question, even if it had to be dragged out of you and even though it is just a smaller version of the apostles creed.
Whether you actually believed all that is a matter between you and God - but in the end, you are right - it has proved nothing as there will be nobody on this site who will be able to prove that you ever acted in accordance with what you say you believed.
One thing is sure, we will all know the truth soon enough.
Whether you actually believed all that is a matter between you and God - but in the end, you are right - it has proved nothing as there will be nobody on this site who will be able to prove that you ever acted in accordance with what you say you believed.
One thing is sure, we will all know the truth soon enough.
Catron Cannot quite see why that was a personal and complex answer.
You cannot quite see that you haven't in fact 'dragged' anything out of me either, can you?
You're right - it wasn't a personal or a complex answer. I gave you a short summary to give us all a bit of peace, that's all.
Whether you actually believed all that is a matter between you and God .
Glad you said that. Perhaps you'll leave it between him and me now then, and stop all this nonsense.
You cannot quite see that you haven't in fact 'dragged' anything out of me either, can you?
You're right - it wasn't a personal or a complex answer. I gave you a short summary to give us all a bit of peace, that's all.
Whether you actually believed all that is a matter between you and God .
Glad you said that. Perhaps you'll leave it between him and me now then, and stop all this nonsense.
oh right, so you are a coward are you naomi24? You could easily have just not replied to my last message and that would have been that - but no, you are simply not prepared to give the true reason so you give me a 'summary' to shut me up. And you wonder why I do not believe you were ever a Christian!
Catron For heavens sake, stop. Personal faith is a complex matter and I will not discuss my most intimate feelings and emotions with anyone on AB, and especially not with anyone as aggressive and as vitriolic as you clearly are. I've given you a summary of my former beliefs, and that's all you're getting. I really don't care what you believe. Enough now - please.
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How am I arguing back styley? I just asked a question for which the answer has never been forthcoming. I realised that naomi24 would never give a truthful answer and so said no more.
Anyway, I am quite sure that naomi24 is indeed not lying about her beliefs NOW but I am equally positive that she is lying, even if she does not really know it herself, that she was once a Christian. If anybody makes a claim here, they have to be ready to face questions on that claim - naomi24 is simply not prepared to do that. Can we leave this now or shall we open it all up again?
Anyway, I am quite sure that naomi24 is indeed not lying about her beliefs NOW but I am equally positive that she is lying, even if she does not really know it herself, that she was once a Christian. If anybody makes a claim here, they have to be ready to face questions on that claim - naomi24 is simply not prepared to do that. Can we leave this now or shall we open it all up again?
No don't open anything up. But, like I was born a catholic and I don't ever plan to renounce that, but at the end of the day, I've always thought deeply about God and religion since my early teens and I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as God or any other entity overseeing our lives. As I say I will never go out of my way to renounce the religion I was born into but if ever questioned I will generally confirm my feelings on God etc. Sometimes were older people are concerned I find it hard to say that as they have lived their lives expecting this big reward in heaven and I don't wanna make them have any thoughts otherwise.
Not saying that I would affect them, just in case.
Not saying that I would affect them, just in case.
Catron What you seem to be saying is that once a Christian, always a Christian, but that's a very blinkered viewpoint and it isn't necessarily so. Let me put it this way. I was a Christian because I wholeheartedly believed that Christianity was totally and utterly right. I had no doubts whatsoever. Jesus was my saviour. However, like most people brought up in a Christian household, I had never researched any other option, and was quite convinced in my belief. Then one day someone introduced me to 'Chariots of the Gods', and I was absolutely outraged that anyone would dare to suggest that God was anything other than the almighty, all-powerful, loving, beneficent creator, or that Jesus was not his son. I found it highly offensive to say the least, and being the strong-minded and determined lady I am, I set about disproving this blasphemy. I was absolutely furious. I read 'Chariots of the Gods' with the bible by my side, and I checked every single biblical reference in Mr Von Daniken's book - and I could find no fault in it. There was no mistake, and, although I was loathe to admit it, it all made perfect sense. What he said the bible contained, it really does contain, and I had no option but to concede that he was right and I was completely and utterly wrong - and no one could have been more shocked than me. Since then I've travelled the world, I've seen some of the places and ancient relics, buildings and places mentioned in 'Chariots of the Gods', and in other books on the subject, and the study of religion has been an important part of my life for many years now.
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I'm not lying to myself, Catron. I'm totally honest with myself, and that's not the easiest thing in the world to be. The collective Abrahamic religions and their biblical God, is the greatest lie ever told, but unless you stop listening to preachers and start to research other options for yourself, you'll never realise that.
You say I would never give a truthful answer to your question, but despite your misgivings, I've told you several times I don't lie, and although I haven't gone into lengthy explanations, I have spoken the truth. However, you asked me to 'prove' that I was once a Christian (which of course is impossible), and you asked me to describe my Christian experience - and that I find intrusive. As I said, personal faith is a complex and a very personal issue, and one I am not prepared to discuss with you.
Incidentally, I do believe Jesus existed, and even though I think he was only a man, I think he was quite an extraordinary man - and I still do my best to follow his teaching - to love (hopefully) - or at least, to tolerate, my fellow man. Christianity has done Jesus, a devout Jew, no favours at all - in fact I'm convinced he'd be appalled by it all. I hope you read that link I gave you on the other thread. You might find it of interest.
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I'm not lying to myself, Catron. I'm totally honest with myself, and that's not the easiest thing in the world to be. The collective Abrahamic religions and their biblical God, is the greatest lie ever told, but unless you stop listening to preachers and start to research other options for yourself, you'll never realise that.
You say I would never give a truthful answer to your question, but despite your misgivings, I've told you several times I don't lie, and although I haven't gone into lengthy explanations, I have spoken the truth. However, you asked me to 'prove' that I was once a Christian (which of course is impossible), and you asked me to describe my Christian experience - and that I find intrusive. As I said, personal faith is a complex and a very personal issue, and one I am not prepared to discuss with you.
Incidentally, I do believe Jesus existed, and even though I think he was only a man, I think he was quite an extraordinary man - and I still do my best to follow his teaching - to love (hopefully) - or at least, to tolerate, my fellow man. Christianity has done Jesus, a devout Jew, no favours at all - in fact I'm convinced he'd be appalled by it all. I hope you read that link I gave you on the other thread. You might find it of interest.
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You say you're a Christian, but are you really? I suppose it depends upon your definition of Christianity, but in my opinion, someone who professes to follow Jesus is never venomous or spiteful. Think about it. Perhaps you should take a look at the plank in your own eye before condemning others.
I don't really understand why my personal beliefs are such a fascination to you, but nevertheless, I hope this explains why intelligent, educated, people who have the courage to think for themselves and to go against convention don't necessarily remain faithful to a religion - but if it isn't enough for you, you'll just have to take my word for it.
You say you're a Christian, but are you really? I suppose it depends upon your definition of Christianity, but in my opinion, someone who professes to follow Jesus is never venomous or spiteful. Think about it. Perhaps you should take a look at the plank in your own eye before condemning others.
I don't really understand why my personal beliefs are such a fascination to you, but nevertheless, I hope this explains why intelligent, educated, people who have the courage to think for themselves and to go against convention don't necessarily remain faithful to a religion - but if it isn't enough for you, you'll just have to take my word for it.
You say you wished me to stop naomi24 and yet you have made three posts now continuing the debate. Ok let's continue.
One - when you become a Christian, you have the Holy Spirit guiding you into all truth. What did the Holy Spirit teach you?
Two, you become more Christlike - how did that manifest itself in your life?
Three - you have taken a book over the Bible - if you believed that the Bible was the word of God, why would you not study the Bible and prove the book wrong, rather than the other way round? Was there no thought in your head that the Devil could produce signs that contradict the Bible and that he (the Devil) was trying to lure you from the truth of Christ? You trusted in God, you say, yet you run away from Him because of a book when the Holy Spirit of God is living within you?
Four, it is easy to believe that if you are from a Christian home that you are a Christian yourself. Not so. It is not until you give your life to Christ that you become a Christian. Believing in Christ as your saviour is very different from giving your life to Christ - one is of the mind, the other of the heart - Christ requires both.
One - when you become a Christian, you have the Holy Spirit guiding you into all truth. What did the Holy Spirit teach you?
Two, you become more Christlike - how did that manifest itself in your life?
Three - you have taken a book over the Bible - if you believed that the Bible was the word of God, why would you not study the Bible and prove the book wrong, rather than the other way round? Was there no thought in your head that the Devil could produce signs that contradict the Bible and that he (the Devil) was trying to lure you from the truth of Christ? You trusted in God, you say, yet you run away from Him because of a book when the Holy Spirit of God is living within you?
Four, it is easy to believe that if you are from a Christian home that you are a Christian yourself. Not so. It is not until you give your life to Christ that you become a Christian. Believing in Christ as your saviour is very different from giving your life to Christ - one is of the mind, the other of the heart - Christ requires both.
Five, do you think God would let you go if you were once His? Never! Christians have doubts sometimes but the power of God always keeps a Christian in the love of God.
Six, you say it is intrusive to ask you to prove your claim that you were once a Christian. Why is it more intrusive for someone to ask you to prove what YOU say than for you to ask others to prove what THEY say?
Seven, you have called me various names and I have no doubt that you (and others) will call me more names now but sorry, you have simply not proved that you were once a Christian. You can attack Christianity from whichever angle you like except one - and that is from the position that you have chosen to attack. Once a (real) Christian, then always a Christian. Sadly, you have never been a real Christian.
Six, you say it is intrusive to ask you to prove your claim that you were once a Christian. Why is it more intrusive for someone to ask you to prove what YOU say than for you to ask others to prove what THEY say?
Seven, you have called me various names and I have no doubt that you (and others) will call me more names now but sorry, you have simply not proved that you were once a Christian. You can attack Christianity from whichever angle you like except one - and that is from the position that you have chosen to attack. Once a (real) Christian, then always a Christian. Sadly, you have never been a real Christian.
Catron Since I was the subject of your discussion with Styley, and you were so arrogantly psychoanalysing me, your post demanded a response. In an effort to be co-operative, and because I, rather naively perhaps, imagined you'd be interested and intelligent enough to read and digest my thoughts, I attempted to give you an insight into how I began to discover another side of the bible - the side the priests don't tell us about. I also tried to explain that study and the accumulation of knowledge, from outside our normal sphere, can often open our eyes and show things in a different perspective. However, my efforts were clearly wasted since what I said is obviously completely beyond your comprehension.
Now you've come back with even more personal questions. I debate aspects of theology with people, but I don't ask them personal and intrusive questions, and neither do I ask them to 'prove' that they believe what they say they believe. That would be absolute nonsense - and yet again, you're talking absolute nonsense.
According to you, when people become Christians, they become more Christ-like, but it doesn't seem to have worked in your case, does it? You have this 'holier than thou' attitude, spouting on about God and love, but I don't know why because you patently don't practice what you preach. Quite frankly, I've never encountered anyone on R&S with quite such a bitter and malicious nature, and I honestly feel really very sorry for you. If you think, as you appear to, that you're a shining example of what a good Christian ought to be, then not only are you wrong, you're welcome to it. I'll stick with the genuinely honest atheists.
I still have no idea why my beliefs hold such fascination for you, but you've continued to make a fool of yourself for long enough, so let this be an end to it.
Now you've come back with even more personal questions. I debate aspects of theology with people, but I don't ask them personal and intrusive questions, and neither do I ask them to 'prove' that they believe what they say they believe. That would be absolute nonsense - and yet again, you're talking absolute nonsense.
According to you, when people become Christians, they become more Christ-like, but it doesn't seem to have worked in your case, does it? You have this 'holier than thou' attitude, spouting on about God and love, but I don't know why because you patently don't practice what you preach. Quite frankly, I've never encountered anyone on R&S with quite such a bitter and malicious nature, and I honestly feel really very sorry for you. If you think, as you appear to, that you're a shining example of what a good Christian ought to be, then not only are you wrong, you're welcome to it. I'll stick with the genuinely honest atheists.
I still have no idea why my beliefs hold such fascination for you, but you've continued to make a fool of yourself for long enough, so let this be an end to it.
Yes, I expected that from you naomi24.
I do not for one second think I am a shining example of a Christian. I am not, never have been, and most likely will never be. But I can tell you this - calling me arrogant, bitter, malicious and whatever other words you choose to call me just because I dare to challenge you when you say you understand Christianity is the mark of someone who has become so anti-religious that even if God were to provide signs and miracles just for you, you would still not believe.
You saying I have made a a fool of myself doesn't have the slightest effect on me. I would rather be a fool and know God than to be wise in this world and not know God.
Will this be an end to it? I guess thats up to you, isn't it - nobody is making you respond to someone you believe has a 'bitter and amlicious nature' are they?
I do not for one second think I am a shining example of a Christian. I am not, never have been, and most likely will never be. But I can tell you this - calling me arrogant, bitter, malicious and whatever other words you choose to call me just because I dare to challenge you when you say you understand Christianity is the mark of someone who has become so anti-religious that even if God were to provide signs and miracles just for you, you would still not believe.
You saying I have made a a fool of myself doesn't have the slightest effect on me. I would rather be a fool and know God than to be wise in this world and not know God.
Will this be an end to it? I guess thats up to you, isn't it - nobody is making you respond to someone you believe has a 'bitter and amlicious nature' are they?
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