Quizzes & Puzzles49 mins ago
Evidence for God?
97 Answers
In two other threads on this site mallymooface has claimed that there is evidence for God, on one occasion even saying "there is plenty of physical evidence for God".
She also asks whether I can produce proof that God doesn't exist. Taking them in order:
The first one is easy from my end: what evidence do you have, mallymooface, for God's existence? I don't mean faith or personal conviction; I mean evidence - your word.
As to the second (that old chestnut) the fact that one cannot prove the non-existence of unnatural things that people have mooted does not support the truth of them.
I am sure that I cannot disprove the existence of unicorns, magic carpets, Elwood P Dowd's invisible white rabbit called 'Harvey' or shoe-mending elves, but does that inability of mine add to their credibility? If so, then anyone can invent any crazy thing and then sit back smugly and say "You disprove it!"
It is for those who claim incredible things to prove them, or at least provide evidence that the rest of us can chase up.
She also asks whether I can produce proof that God doesn't exist. Taking them in order:
The first one is easy from my end: what evidence do you have, mallymooface, for God's existence? I don't mean faith or personal conviction; I mean evidence - your word.
As to the second (that old chestnut) the fact that one cannot prove the non-existence of unnatural things that people have mooted does not support the truth of them.
I am sure that I cannot disprove the existence of unicorns, magic carpets, Elwood P Dowd's invisible white rabbit called 'Harvey' or shoe-mending elves, but does that inability of mine add to their credibility? If so, then anyone can invent any crazy thing and then sit back smugly and say "You disprove it!"
It is for those who claim incredible things to prove them, or at least provide evidence that the rest of us can chase up.
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Chaka why do you personlise virtually every squabble that you have on here? It's just froth and bubble, move on from that thread and onto the next.
Theland, Spontaneous decoration like it, could do with some of that at Chez' Ev (I might'nt have gotten so ill) especially when Mrs. Ev moves in.
As any man who's ever moved a woman into their home will tell you the first thing you discover is that everything you own is crap. So al my renovations will have to start again. ;-(
I'll end up spending my time on boot hill rather Bootle!!
Theland, Spontaneous decoration like it, could do with some of that at Chez' Ev (I might'nt have gotten so ill) especially when Mrs. Ev moves in.
As any man who's ever moved a woman into their home will tell you the first thing you discover is that everything you own is crap. So al my renovations will have to start again. ;-(
I'll end up spending my time on boot hill rather Bootle!!
"Was god created, yes or no?"
This question is farcical, no offence.
Like me saying 'Ok imagine you own this zebra, the unstriped kind, with udders' 'But that's no zebra' 'Ok but just imagine'. God is, BY DEFINITION, uncreated. The notion of God is entirely man made. A very large part of that notion is 'non-createdness'. If it's created, it cannot therefor be 'God'. When we say 'Does God exist?', we are asking the very same question as 'Is there a creating, necessary being that is itself uncreated?'
There is no evidence that such a thing exists. To say 'believing in the existence of something that came to be without always positing a proximal cause for that or the existence of infinite regressive causes' is arrogant in the extreme because it assumes an implicit knowledge of the order of things outside the known universe, which no one yet knows. It is effectively saying 'There IS a God, because I think so'. That's all it ever was. Actually read Aquinas or The Vatican Council documents on the existence of God. They all assume the existence of that which they seek to demonstrate.
And that is either intellecuatlly bankrupt or delusion verging on schizophrenia. You decide.
This question is farcical, no offence.
Like me saying 'Ok imagine you own this zebra, the unstriped kind, with udders' 'But that's no zebra' 'Ok but just imagine'. God is, BY DEFINITION, uncreated. The notion of God is entirely man made. A very large part of that notion is 'non-createdness'. If it's created, it cannot therefor be 'God'. When we say 'Does God exist?', we are asking the very same question as 'Is there a creating, necessary being that is itself uncreated?'
There is no evidence that such a thing exists. To say 'believing in the existence of something that came to be without always positing a proximal cause for that or the existence of infinite regressive causes' is arrogant in the extreme because it assumes an implicit knowledge of the order of things outside the known universe, which no one yet knows. It is effectively saying 'There IS a God, because I think so'. That's all it ever was. Actually read Aquinas or The Vatican Council documents on the existence of God. They all assume the existence of that which they seek to demonstrate.
And that is either intellecuatlly bankrupt or delusion verging on schizophrenia. You decide.
meredith - You talk about particles and anti particles popping in and out of existence willy nilly, something we can observe of course, but these particles are popping into a gravitational field, with zero point energy, and although extrememely low, a temperature that is measurable.
These three things already exist as part of out universe, so who is to say that they do not affect the sudden appearance and demise of such ethereal particles? In other words, the particles cannot be said categorically, to be totally independent of outside influence for their brief existence.
These three things already exist as part of out universe, so who is to say that they do not affect the sudden appearance and demise of such ethereal particles? In other words, the particles cannot be said categorically, to be totally independent of outside influence for their brief existence.
XL- Of course everything comes from somewhere apart from God. He is eternal. It is mere specification. If you do not believe in God then of course you are going to say that. But ask anyone who believe in God. When they speak about that everything has a creator that excludes God and that is understood. Otherwise you tell me who created God? if you know someone.
Yes, of course I'll accept circumstantial evidence. As Thoreau said:
"Sometimes circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk."
Any evidence, please. And can't imagine what 123everton means by 'personalising' and 'squabble'. All I have asked is that a person who claims to have evidence for God would indulge me by producing it.
By all means use this thread for your own purposes, folks, but I am still awaiting an answer to my question.
Maybe, while we're waiting for mally, you can use up some time, Theland by producing your circumstantial evidence.
"Sometimes circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk."
Any evidence, please. And can't imagine what 123everton means by 'personalising' and 'squabble'. All I have asked is that a person who claims to have evidence for God would indulge me by producing it.
By all means use this thread for your own purposes, folks, but I am still awaiting an answer to my question.
Maybe, while we're waiting for mally, you can use up some time, Theland by producing your circumstantial evidence.
keyplus - my point is your contradiction. You can't use creationism as a explaination for a devine force if you readily accept that that divine force wasn't created itself.
Its a paradox.
If you can accept the notion of eternal then that can be applied to the universe. You don't need to complicate things by adding supernatural element.
Its a paradox.
If you can accept the notion of eternal then that can be applied to the universe. You don't need to complicate things by adding supernatural element.
If we accept that there is no such thing as spontaneous decoration or desecration as in chakkas imaginary house, but we do accept that there was a spontaneous creation, that occurred at the big bang, then that to me is ridiculous.
But if that is what this court is asserting, then I shall have to turn my cards over and throw in my hand, as this court is refusing to accept as evidence by analogy, what I consider to be powerful reasons for believing in a first cause, God.
So I'll sit in the public gallery and take my schizophrenia medicine and maybe just heckle from time to time.
Thank you for your patience, m'lud.
But if that is what this court is asserting, then I shall have to turn my cards over and throw in my hand, as this court is refusing to accept as evidence by analogy, what I consider to be powerful reasons for believing in a first cause, God.
So I'll sit in the public gallery and take my schizophrenia medicine and maybe just heckle from time to time.
Thank you for your patience, m'lud.
Hi Chakka there is an advert at the moment for a magazine that comes with a free model solar system that you can make yourself. What if that solar system turned up at your house made up? Wouldn't you think that someone had made it? Wouldn't it seem absurd to think it made itself out of nothing? When I consider the universe I consider it evidence that there is a God. You look at the universe and think it is evidence that there isn't.
Thats number one.
I have lots of personal evidence that God exists. It wouldn't prove anything to you, because if God walked up to you and slapped you round the face I think you would convince yourself it was something else! But when I have needed God to prove himself to me, he has done. No I haven't seen God, but I have heard his voice, and I have felt his presence - now someone else would say I had a chemical defect in my brain making me hear voices, and feel things that aren't there, and that it proves nothing, and I agree. Those things don't prove to anybody else, but put back to back with all the other "coincindental occurences" that have happened when I have prayed, they amount to pretty good evidence (for me) to believe. You want examples? I can supply.
Thats number one.
I have lots of personal evidence that God exists. It wouldn't prove anything to you, because if God walked up to you and slapped you round the face I think you would convince yourself it was something else! But when I have needed God to prove himself to me, he has done. No I haven't seen God, but I have heard his voice, and I have felt his presence - now someone else would say I had a chemical defect in my brain making me hear voices, and feel things that aren't there, and that it proves nothing, and I agree. Those things don't prove to anybody else, but put back to back with all the other "coincindental occurences" that have happened when I have prayed, they amount to pretty good evidence (for me) to believe. You want examples? I can supply.
One example, was sitting in a stand in a marquee at a big event, and as I sat there I felt a great fear suddenly grip me. I felt like someone was saying "there is something not right, something really bad is going to happen." At first I thought I was just being weird. But the feeling just wouldn't go away. So I began to talk to God about it. I felt him ask me to ask for everyone's safety and so I did. I prayed that nobody would get killed. I felt very weird praying that way because it isn't like me to be so strange. Minutes later the whole stand collapsed, and several people were trapped underneath. But nobody was seriously hurt, just one woman had a broken leg. But it was like a miracle nobody was more seriously hurt. I feel that this was evidence not only that God exists, but he tries to communicate with us, and that he cares. You probably would think that doesn't count as evidence because you weren't there, didn't hear my prayer, and could just be making the whole story up. Or maybe you would just put it down to sixth sense or something, or woman's intuition or whatever. I consider it evidence that God exists!
Another bit of evidence is my cousin's son had a tumour in his knee. He was eight years old at the time. He was to go to Birmingham to have a major operation to remove it - and it was a very risky operation because of the position of the tumour it meant that they may have to amputate. Everybody began to pray. They arrived at the hospital and took him for a final scan to decide which way to procede, when they did the scan the tumour had disappeared, totally. There was no medical explanation for what had happened. The doctors were baffled. You might think it evidence for something else. I think it is evidence that there is a God.
Mally- Your examples are what anyone feels who believe in God. But these people will not understand that. They need a framed photograph underneath where it should say "GOD".
In simple words I have said that so many times that if you believe in him he is where you are, well if you do not then try finding him and you will never find him. These people will call it chemical reaction.
In simple words I have said that so many times that if you believe in him he is where you are, well if you do not then try finding him and you will never find him. These people will call it chemical reaction.
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