Is there a god?

[LeedsRhinos]

Is there a god? I mean look at all the different relgions around the world who all believe that THEY are right & the others are wrong. They can't all be right can they. Which is why in my opion it all rubbish.

[jcherbstritt]

I don't really know but, going with the idea that we are all connected it's about sending 'good vibes' in the right direction I suppose.  Just small changes in atoms or whatever.  It kind of connects with looking outwards to others because prayer is about empathy (i'm not really talking about prayer as in 'I want to pass this exam' - selfish prayer), which is about realising your connection with others, really through compassion and understanding of others.  Prayer is a form of empathy with others that does change things but only to a small degree.  I guess prayer is also about guidance, and guiding you along the right path...so I guess there's lots of different types of prayer that work differently.  So I guess prayer points you in the right direction, which means doing the best you can for the rest of the world, and also helps you to empathise with others.

Of course, this is all very idealistic, and in reality it is hard to pray well, and hard to know right from wrong!

[Merlin]

BUT

is religion dictated by god or concocted by man?

does god exist outside of your head? If all of mankind ceased to exist, would your god still be there?

[El D]

so prayer has a physical effect on the world? Why then is it limited to good causes, and why is it nor more effective?

[tnw9115]

You all should read the bible before you start saying that there is no God because for your info there is so get over it!!!  And by the way making jokes about this fact is not funny at all and I find no humor in it.  So you can reply to my comment but this will not change my beleifs.  I really pray that you all change your minds about there not being a God.

[jcherbstritt]

Yes God does exist outside of my head.

Prayer is not necessarily limited to good causes - but the God I believe in isn't able to influence things for the worse.  I'm not saying that Satan worshippers can't influence things for the worse when they pray.  And how do you know how effective prayer has been through history?  It's not something you can prove scientifically. 

[Merlin]

So, jcherbstritt, you seem to have entered the lions' den - and good for you for doing it and not shying away.

But can you describe what you understand to be nature of the God that you have faith in? Is he, perhaps, omniscient, omnipresent (at all points in time), eternal, creator of the universe and life, God the Father of Jesus?

It is only fair to warn you, perhaps, that it is my experience that the question is unanswerable because there is no meaningful and coherent description of the nature of anyone's God.

But someone might prove me wrong one day!!

That sort of thing - how do you perceive him?

[bobbyx]

jcherbstritt

To follow up Merlin's post:

You state that "the God I believe in isn't able to influence things for the worse".

So, you really can't think of an instance when your God has influenced things for the worse?

 

I presume you don't believe in the one from that 'Bible' book then, because he was able to do ANYTHING, and he certainly did influence many things for the worse!

 

Tell me that everything he did (in that story book) was for the greater good, and I'll tell you why that doesn't make sense.

[fredfuller]

In a recent episode of Joan of Arcadia, Joan asks God why she--God is a woman this time--allowed all the religions in the world to get started and survive. God says that people have different ideas about who God is, and religions are their ways of expressing those ideas. To me God is George Burns, amused, detached, animal-loving, but concerned that we're f------ up all the good stuff he, she or it has done. Beyond that I do not know, and neither does anyone else.

[El D]

fredfuller - yes very cuddly. Did they miss out how Christians believe every other religion will burn in eternal hellfire for not being converted? I suppose that wouldnt have sounded very good would it?

 

Perhaps the theists could outline the exact limitations of prayer? As I understand it god cannot interfere because doing so will compromise our free will. This is the reason we do not live in paradise presumably, as god obviously desires it for us? What determines whether a prayer is answered? The goodness of the person, the rightness of their cause? Which god they pray to? Their devotion to their religion? The answering of a prayer must be through god, so we must also assume that he is willing to interfere - why then is it only via prayer? He is happy to sit and watch millions die, but if someone prays he will do something about it? What kind of monster is he?

[Merlin]

fredfuller

I have to say it again and again. If you have faith in 'God', then surely you muat at least have an idea of what that God is.

It is absurd to say that you have faith in something and not know what it is.

You may not know God exactly and completely, but you must, surely, be able to describe God as you undrestand him to be.

And to say things like "we can't know God because he is ineffable", or "our human minds are too simple to understand God" are just lazy cop-outs.

If you have faith in God, then you must necessarily have an idea of what he is.

When you describe what your God is and what he has done, you will see that your description cannot possibly be correct or has so many gaps, or is so nebulous that it describes nothing, or it describes something that already has a name and is known to science.

 

Now - give it a proper go!

[cowboyuser]

I was brought up in fairly unreligious circumstances and therefore my opinion may sound rather objective but to feel totally faithful in an explanation of spirituality, the universe and our 'souls' created and adjusted over time by humans is nothing other than short sighted. All religion's have been created and changed through time by man, modern Catholicism is unrecognisable from the faith 500 years ago. Anglican archbishops are being urged to accept homosexuals into the church when the bible reads against them - which incidentally is so absurd i can't believe modern society allows us to even print bibles, talk about inciting hatred, have the government even read it!? Religion's are one of many forms of control, believers restrict their behaviour because of them, for example the belief that the cow is holy in Hinduhism (spell?) is only a few hundred years old. It was incorporated into the religion by the state to prevent farmers eating cattle during famines - thus ensuring India's dairy supply (feel free to research this). I'm dragging on, my point is please be confident enough to release indoctrinated beliefs and assess the world for what you see. So many weird and unexplainable things happen everyday that there has to be something there, i just know that we don't know what it is....yet.

"Education for some could mean peace for all"

[thundercake]

who cares. =P

[jcherbstritt]

Okay Merlin, I will attempt an answer, but you'll probably accuse me of being vague or fluffy.  God, in my experience is basically a compassionate, creative, conscious force.  I suppose I believe that the only real way that people can change is through love.  So that is why I say that only prayers meant for the God of other people work.

I am a Christian, though very cynical of religion in general, and particularly Christianity.  I am also very open to Buddhist ideas (though Buddhists don't actually believe in God).  I don't like the old Testament in general, or alot of Acts or St. Paul's letters.  But I think the Gospels pretty well describe the God I believe in - that is a God who is for the poor, the sick, and for those who fight for peace in justice in the world.  Jesus was a healer, but he could heal only through empathy with the people he healed.  For me it's basically about trying to love your neighbour as yourself, and to have a faith in goodness and the good in people.  Which is more than enough to be getting along with.

I don't think you can logically prove that God exists. God is hard to describe because it is only through experience that you gradually get to understand what God is about.  You're talking about something that can't be seen and that is ultimately beyond human understanding.  You can call God Creator, Father, Love, Nirvana, Mother - but these are just human concepts and God is ultimately beyond these things and can only be known through experience. 

Here endeth the preaching!

[keen2learn]

The existence of a God or God-like figures in cultural history does not prove or validate its/their reality. Moral thinking and behaviour is not the sole province of Christian, or indeed any, believers, but should be an integral part of human development. If reading the Bible provides you with a justification for behaving humanely towards others, fine, but it's a disaster if such beliefs lead any sector of humanity to act intolerantly towards others and feel that they are supported in doing so by any 'God' (hope you read this George Bush - moral crusaders are dangerously narrow thinkers).

[bobbyx]

jcherbstritt:

Have you conveniently forgotten to answer my question?

 

By the way, I see the usual picking and choosing - ie choosing to believe the nice bits of the bible or christianity and sweeping the nasty bits under the carpet in your last post.

Also, I think human understanding is somewhat underestimated - to say that 'God' is beyond human understanding is the final fall-back cop-out to use when you can't describe what it is!

I believe God to be a human invention, and therefore very much within our capacity to understand.

If you can't understand something why jump to a silly conclusion?

[jcherbstritt]

Bobbyx,

The Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by humans - and yes, they are undoubtedly capable of doing very evil things in the name of religion. Humans are of course always claiming that God is on their side, and they can't possibly all be right of course.  I am not denying that Judaism - as mentioned in the Bible in the Old Testament in all its violent stories and wars - and later Christianity with the crusades, with the inquistion, with colonialism - did terrible things in the name of God.  But Christians have also done a lot of good.  Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa (mostly), Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Dorothy Day, Archbishop Romero - are the Christians who represent the God I believe in.

As I pointed out before, religion is dangerous - especially when people aren't critical about it from within it.  This includes religions without gods like patriotism and communism - which also killed thousands of people.

The Bible is about human history, and the human history of trying to understand God.  I use the Bible as a reference in trying to understand God.  I do believe God is certainly beyond human rational understanding.  I have experienced God, but, like I said, I can't prove God exists.  I think you can only know God exists through your own experience.  Maybe you'll say that's my imagination.

Despite my saying God is beyond human understanding, I thought I had a pretty good go at describing what I thought God was.  Of course you don't believe God is beyond human understanding, because you believe humans created God.  That's your belief.

[bobbyx]

I don't believe I suggested that the Bible was written by God!
maybe you misunderstood my question to you earlier. When you said 'the God I believe in isn't able to influence things for the worse' and I asked if you could think of any instance in the bible when God did just that, you took it to mean humans acting in his name.

Can anyone think of an example of God influencing things for the worse?

if your answer is no then you are

a) Completely ignorant towards the subject (very good) or

b) You're looking at it from the side of the 'goodies' in the Bible.

So lets have your spiteful / vengeful God suggestions everyone (think of the poor Roman footsoldiers)

[Merlin]

jcherbstritt

�God, in my experience is basically a compassionate, creative, conscious force.�
Is your God unable to prevent suffering and evil in the world?
�I suppose I believe that the only real way that people can change is through love.�
It is well known that people change through war, for instance, and oppression.
�So that is why I say that only prayers meant for the God of other people work.�
Is your God not the only God, then?
�I am a Christian�
But to be Christian, surely, means that you believe in only one God � so there cannot be Gods of other people.
What does it mean today to say  �I am a Christian�?
�The Gospels pretty well describe the God I believe in�.
The God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament, isn�t he?
�that is a God who is for the poor, the sick, and for those who fight for peace in justice in the world�
Why is it that the powerful, rich and  selfish often seem so much better off than the poor sick and unrepresented?
�I don't think you can logically prove that God exists�.
But you can show that the God as understood by many people cannot exist in that way.

[Merlin]

jcherbstritt

(Part 2)

 

I don�t think that an entity in which one has faith, faith that he will deliver your ultimate deliverance and on which you are betting your life, should be beyond your understanding. If you cannot understand it in a coherent way, how can you have faith that it will deliver?

I do believe that mankind constructed the concept of God for various reasons and perpetuated the myth for various reasons � not all of them within his voluntary control. What regularly confirms my views is the inability of the faithful to coherently describe just what �God� is.

The questions I have posed illustrate the difficulties that one has to face when trying to describe one�s own understanding of God. I will quite understand if you decline to respond to them. But if you do, I expect to be able to show that the more detailed the description of God, the greater the inconsistencies and the less plausible it becomes.

Cheers.

And if I don't hear from you again - have a happy holiday.

[jcherbstritt]

I thought I would get my tuppence worth in before Christmas...you both make good points, and I agree, there are weaknesses in my argument.  I'm not sure how I'm supposed to cover evil and suffering, what it means to be a Christian today, and all the terrible things in the Bible in just one short entry, but here's some thoughts..

Bobbyx - I see what you're saying.  You're talking about things that God specifically did in the Bible like sending Adam and Eve out of the Garden (which I believe is a myth anyway) or (better argument) killing the first borns of all the Egyptians so that Moses et al could escape.  No, I don't ignor these facts - I find them difficult.  I don't want to believe in that sort of God.  By the way - if I understand the Roman reference, where Peter cut of a soldiers ear - in at least one of the 4 versions of the gospel it was healed by Jesus.  And anyway, that was Peter doing that - not God.  As far as I know, Jesus did nothing violent against anyone while he was alive.

to be continued...