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Society & Culture3 mins ago
Should There Be A Lasting Memorial For Murdered Lee Rigby, Such As The One That Was Placed For Stephen Lawrence, A Few Miles Away In Eltham?
170 Answers
Answers
Andy, you're a very vociferous and opinionated person. So much so that you often have to issue apologies. Yet if you feel transgressed against, you don your moderator cap and threaten people. Imo, you should either moderate your own behaviour or stop issuing threats to others.(or better still, both)
15:57 Wed 29th Oct 2014
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andy-hughes
/// That is semantics. ///
Call it what you may, it seems to have worked, if you do not want semantics brought into the debate then perhaps you should be the one that is careful what you put.
For your reference the meaning of semantics.
*** The meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text ***
*** The study of language meaning ***
/// If you want to derail your own thread, go ahead, excuse me if I elect not to join you on this occasion. ///
It is not I who is trying to derail this thread, read what other have put.
And Andy I am not forcing you to join in on this occasion, in fact I'd rather you not to.
/// That is semantics. ///
Call it what you may, it seems to have worked, if you do not want semantics brought into the debate then perhaps you should be the one that is careful what you put.
For your reference the meaning of semantics.
*** The meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text ***
*** The study of language meaning ***
/// If you want to derail your own thread, go ahead, excuse me if I elect not to join you on this occasion. ///
It is not I who is trying to derail this thread, read what other have put.
And Andy I am not forcing you to join in on this occasion, in fact I'd rather you not to.
AOG
You keep going on about 'obvious comparisons' but when posters who cannot see any obvious comparision and ask you to tell us, you just keep uttering 'obvious' at us. Other than they were both murder victims, the two cases appear to me to be very different.
Stephen Lawrence was a member of the public.
Lee Rigby was a serving soldier.
SL was murdered by a racist gang.
LR was murdered by religious fanatics.
SL was stabbed.
LR was run over by a car and beheaded.
SL murder was inadequately investigated.
LR murderers were arrested immediately.
SL family had to campaign to get justice.
LR killers were quickly dealt with.
Both were young and killed in tragic circumstances by low-life criminals. Other than that, there is no comparison between the motives and the circumstances of the two cases.
If there are some obvious similarites I have missed, I will gladly await you pointing them out.
You keep going on about 'obvious comparisons' but when posters who cannot see any obvious comparision and ask you to tell us, you just keep uttering 'obvious' at us. Other than they were both murder victims, the two cases appear to me to be very different.
Stephen Lawrence was a member of the public.
Lee Rigby was a serving soldier.
SL was murdered by a racist gang.
LR was murdered by religious fanatics.
SL was stabbed.
LR was run over by a car and beheaded.
SL murder was inadequately investigated.
LR murderers were arrested immediately.
SL family had to campaign to get justice.
LR killers were quickly dealt with.
Both were young and killed in tragic circumstances by low-life criminals. Other than that, there is no comparison between the motives and the circumstances of the two cases.
If there are some obvious similarites I have missed, I will gladly await you pointing them out.
gness - "Then I will have to strongly disagree with those who say Lee didn't fall in battle, Andy.....for me he did."
A fair point - we see things differently.
"To continue to replace a memorial...or repair damage to his name....well my head is trying to agree with you....but my heart always wins over...so I would do that.... every time...."
I completely understand your reasons for not wanting to bow down to senseless vandalism, and from a 'heart' point of view I am entirely with you, but I merely pointed out the financial penalties incurred by ongoing relacement.
"I can't put myself in the place of his family and friends....but I would see the attacks on my son's name, by the enemy who killed him, as a small victory...
....that sounds perverse, but I know what I mean.....please don't take my inability to express it well the wrong way....x"
I understand what you are saying - maybe they see it the same way.
"i like the idea of a memorial bench......a place to reflect....."
Me too, especially if the name commemorated is carved into the structure, which would make it less easy to deface, or steal, as in the case of a plaque.
A fair point - we see things differently.
"To continue to replace a memorial...or repair damage to his name....well my head is trying to agree with you....but my heart always wins over...so I would do that.... every time...."
I completely understand your reasons for not wanting to bow down to senseless vandalism, and from a 'heart' point of view I am entirely with you, but I merely pointed out the financial penalties incurred by ongoing relacement.
"I can't put myself in the place of his family and friends....but I would see the attacks on my son's name, by the enemy who killed him, as a small victory...
....that sounds perverse, but I know what I mean.....please don't take my inability to express it well the wrong way....x"
I understand what you are saying - maybe they see it the same way.
"i like the idea of a memorial bench......a place to reflect....."
Me too, especially if the name commemorated is carved into the structure, which would make it less easy to deface, or steal, as in the case of a plaque.
Since many have chosen to dwell on my Stephen Lawrence comparison rather than the main issue, that being the fact that Lee Rigby is not to be remembered by a plaque being placed on the site of his brutal murder, then I am going to go further with my valid but non racial comparison.
Some have said it would be wise not to put this plaque on open display in case it is vandalised, (and here we come to the comparison once again) Stephen Lawrence's plaque is defaced in some way periodically, should we now remove this from public gaze also?
Some have said it would be wise not to put this plaque on open display in case it is vandalised, (and here we come to the comparison once again) Stephen Lawrence's plaque is defaced in some way periodically, should we now remove this from public gaze also?
We disagree respectfully, Andy....as it should be....x
MrG's memorial bench is in a lovely spot in woodland....a peaceful place to sit and think....but I had to take advice on the plaque.....the brass one I chose would have been stolen they said....so the company make worthless...brass looking ones....so sad....but the only mess on it ever...is bird poo....☺
MrG's memorial bench is in a lovely spot in woodland....a peaceful place to sit and think....but I had to take advice on the plaque.....the brass one I chose would have been stolen they said....so the company make worthless...brass looking ones....so sad....but the only mess on it ever...is bird poo....☺
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sp1814
i thank you for your more balanced argument on this issue which others have have chosen to ague similarly
But please can I address this part of your post,without any racial comment intended.
/// With Stephen Lawrence, his family had to fight for years for justice to be done. Admittedly, there are still some (even on AB), whose attitude to Doreen can be summed up with, "Oh for goodness sake, get over it" - but like the mother of Lee Rigby who saw justice served, it's right that we have a reminder that sometimes justice has to be fought for. ///
Are you suggesting here that the reason that the Lawrence plaque was allowed was because of an attempt at some kind of apology?
i thank you for your more balanced argument on this issue which others have have chosen to ague similarly
But please can I address this part of your post,without any racial comment intended.
/// With Stephen Lawrence, his family had to fight for years for justice to be done. Admittedly, there are still some (even on AB), whose attitude to Doreen can be summed up with, "Oh for goodness sake, get over it" - but like the mother of Lee Rigby who saw justice served, it's right that we have a reminder that sometimes justice has to be fought for. ///
Are you suggesting here that the reason that the Lawrence plaque was allowed was because of an attempt at some kind of apology?
PiperH
/// Stephen Laurence killed because of his colour
Lee Rigby killed because of religion and politics ///
That is a simplistic way of putting it you say that "Stephen Laurence killed because of his colour" is there any evidence of this? yes it is no doubt that he was killed by a gang of white youths, but was it because Stephen was black or because there was verbal banter between the two groups?
You say "Lee Rigby was killed because of religion and politics" yes in a way that is true but the main reason was that he was a serving soldier wearing an Army tee-shirt outside an Army barracks.
If it was just a matter of religion and politics they could have picked on anyone close by.
/// Stephen Laurence killed because of his colour
Lee Rigby killed because of religion and politics ///
That is a simplistic way of putting it you say that "Stephen Laurence killed because of his colour" is there any evidence of this? yes it is no doubt that he was killed by a gang of white youths, but was it because Stephen was black or because there was verbal banter between the two groups?
You say "Lee Rigby was killed because of religion and politics" yes in a way that is true but the main reason was that he was a serving soldier wearing an Army tee-shirt outside an Army barracks.
If it was just a matter of religion and politics they could have picked on anyone close by.
Gromit
/// If there are some obvious similarites I have missed, I will gladly await you pointing them out. ///
You have pointed out most un-similarities but refrained from pointing out the obvious one that is under discussion, that being the fact that there was a plaque allowed for Stephen Lawrence but not one for Lee Rigby, how many more times have I got to point this out, it isn't rocket science?
/// If there are some obvious similarites I have missed, I will gladly await you pointing them out. ///
You have pointed out most un-similarities but refrained from pointing out the obvious one that is under discussion, that being the fact that there was a plaque allowed for Stephen Lawrence but not one for Lee Rigby, how many more times have I got to point this out, it isn't rocket science?
It is up to whoever owns the Stephen Lawrence plaque whether they continue to spend money on repairing it. Once permission was given for it, and the memorial buit, it would be wholly wrong to take it down because a small thuggish element see fit to attack it.
I did say earlier, in retrospect the Stephen Lawrence memorial was a bad idea. It should have been obvious that racists would attack it, as has subsequently happened. It would have been much better to site it in a safer place.
We can anticipate that the Lee Rigby monument may be a target for vandals. By learning from the past mistake with the Stephen Lawrence memorial, we should decide to place the memorial in a safer place.
Or we can build it, let it be attacked, and his family, friends and colleagues are further distressed. The sensible thing is to try and avoid that.
The Victorians put their statues of fallen Generals on high plinths or columns so that they were safe. What would be wrong in doing the same with a memorial to Lee Rigby? Place it in his barracks, but high enough to be viewed by the general public.
In the Rigby case, we can
I did say earlier, in retrospect the Stephen Lawrence memorial was a bad idea. It should have been obvious that racists would attack it, as has subsequently happened. It would have been much better to site it in a safer place.
We can anticipate that the Lee Rigby monument may be a target for vandals. By learning from the past mistake with the Stephen Lawrence memorial, we should decide to place the memorial in a safer place.
Or we can build it, let it be attacked, and his family, friends and colleagues are further distressed. The sensible thing is to try and avoid that.
The Victorians put their statues of fallen Generals on high plinths or columns so that they were safe. What would be wrong in doing the same with a memorial to Lee Rigby? Place it in his barracks, but high enough to be viewed by the general public.
In the Rigby case, we can
mikey4444
/// What a pity you just can't forget about the Lawrence affair and get on with your life. ///
It is not I who has spoilt a good debate, although 54 responses so far is not bad, perhaps next time you dish out your repetitive Labour Party propaganda I can also tell you to "get on with your life", but then thinking about it that is your life.
/// What a pity you just can't forget about the Lawrence affair and get on with your life. ///
It is not I who has spoilt a good debate, although 54 responses so far is not bad, perhaps next time you dish out your repetitive Labour Party propaganda I can also tell you to "get on with your life", but then thinking about it that is your life.
AOG - "It is not I who has spoilt a good debate, although 54 responses so far is not bad, perhaps next time you dish out your repetitive Labour Party propaganda I can also tell you to "get on with your life", but then thinking about it that is your life."
If you continue with your offensive tone, to me and others, I will report you.
It is not necessary, or appropriate, and I am asking you to desist from it.
If you continue with your offensive tone, to me and others, I will report you.
It is not necessary, or appropriate, and I am asking you to desist from it.
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