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A Bravado Racist Chant Maybe, But A Real Act Of Racism?
272 Answers
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Much has been said and reported about the Chelsea fans behaviour in France, mainly due to the Video obtained by the Guardian.
Well apart from the ridiculous chant from a football crowd, and many of us have become accustomed to these over the years, was it enough for calls for the perpetrators to answer to be banned and face the law?
As far as I could see from the video, the black man was walking along the platform, until he got to the open door of the carriage containing the football crowd.
Now what was said, perhaps we will never know, but instead of the black man trying to board the train was he actually trying to confront these football supporters in an aggressive way, and if he was isn't it obvious that they would try and push him away.
Yes we all know that the crowd were suppose to be shouting "We’re racist, we’re racist, and that’s the way we like it". (because the Guardian has told us that), but in the true football crowd tradition was this just to get back at their opponent.
I am in no way condoning an act of racism if that is what it was, but before you condemn me look at the video again.
Much has been said and reported about the Chelsea fans behaviour in France, mainly due to the Video obtained by the Guardian.
Well apart from the ridiculous chant from a football crowd, and many of us have become accustomed to these over the years, was it enough for calls for the perpetrators to answer to be banned and face the law?
As far as I could see from the video, the black man was walking along the platform, until he got to the open door of the carriage containing the football crowd.
Now what was said, perhaps we will never know, but instead of the black man trying to board the train was he actually trying to confront these football supporters in an aggressive way, and if he was isn't it obvious that they would try and push him away.
Yes we all know that the crowd were suppose to be shouting "We’re racist, we’re racist, and that’s the way we like it". (because the Guardian has told us that), but in the true football crowd tradition was this just to get back at their opponent.
I am in no way condoning an act of racism if that is what it was, but before you condemn me look at the video again.
Answers
If one of this gang had punched someone and put them in hospital would had there been as much uproar? No, I dont think their would. Name calling is now a more serious offence than any violent attack it seems.
15:07 Thu 19th Feb 2015
-- answer removed --
alavahalf - "Not wanting to throw petrol on this ever smouldering fire ... I for one clearly seen references to the black man walking past an "empty Carriage" before confronting the Chelsea supporters( in more than one instance), as I am sure those in earlier on this debate must surely remember or recall.
...Where are they now ?..
It is important, but I wont comment any further until I get someone who agree's these references can no longer be found...either that or I've lost my marbles."
Here's one - I'll leave it up to you to work out who posted it!
"/// If you are going to confront a gang of football supporters ... I doubt very much if you would turn your back on them as seen in as second attempt to board the train. His body language is all wrong. ///
I have looked at it yet again and fail to see where he has turned his back, pushed to one side yes.
Notice also the different ways the clip has been edited, first this BBC clip shows an open carriage no sight of the black man, but there is a black woman in the doorway, no problem there.
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Then we see the Guardian one, Black man walks down the platform and stops at the one carrying the football crowd."
...Where are they now ?..
It is important, but I wont comment any further until I get someone who agree's these references can no longer be found...either that or I've lost my marbles."
Here's one - I'll leave it up to you to work out who posted it!
"/// If you are going to confront a gang of football supporters ... I doubt very much if you would turn your back on them as seen in as second attempt to board the train. His body language is all wrong. ///
I have looked at it yet again and fail to see where he has turned his back, pushed to one side yes.
Notice also the different ways the clip has been edited, first this BBC clip shows an open carriage no sight of the black man, but there is a black woman in the doorway, no problem there.
http://
Then we see the Guardian one, Black man walks down the platform and stops at the one carrying the football crowd."
I'm actually quite glad to see this having calmed down. We don't want anyone have a heart attack. Time to lick wounds I think !
Even if there is some doubt as to who insulted who, Chelsea FC have offered an olive branch.
I hope he accepts ... http://
Even if there is some doubt as to who insulted who, Chelsea FC have offered an olive branch.
I hope he accepts ... http://
What can we say it is really beyond us, its down to the man himself what he will accept. I think an apology will go a long way for a start.
It looks as though Chelsea are taking it seriously and they should., some more have been named and shamed.
The problem is football is an excuse for a small fraction to travel and create trouble under the guise of a supporter. They aren't football supporters just scum. This of course paints the rest with the same brush.
A season ticket wouldn't go amiss ... for all the family ... along with travel permits obviously.
It looks as though Chelsea are taking it seriously and they should., some more have been named and shamed.
The problem is football is an excuse for a small fraction to travel and create trouble under the guise of a supporter. They aren't football supporters just scum. This of course paints the rest with the same brush.
A season ticket wouldn't go amiss ... for all the family ... along with travel permits obviously.
That's where you're wrong alavahalf, they are supporters and that's why Chelsea's FC have offered the fella a ticket for the next match.
They've known for years that they've got these *** supporting them and only now they decide to show that they're actually doing something.
As for the press conference and them denying that song was sung about John Terry, well they would wouldn't they.
Perhaps their wonderful captain will be giving the fella a guided tour around Stamford Bridge, after all he's not racist, much.
They've known for years that they've got these *** supporting them and only now they decide to show that they're actually doing something.
As for the press conference and them denying that song was sung about John Terry, well they would wouldn't they.
Perhaps their wonderful captain will be giving the fella a guided tour around Stamford Bridge, after all he's not racist, much.
Well, this thread turned into a bit of a click-farm, didn't it?
My own, disjointed thoughts, in no particular order:-
i) An appalling example of something which many of us merely suspect happens all the time. Once a group of ill-disciplined males, with no sense of responsibilty to their wife and kids and no reluctance to become an embarassment to their parents and wider family, gets above a certain size, they fall-in behind the pack leader. If that individual happens to be a yob, they will all act like yobs; if he happens to be a racist yob they will all act like racist yobs. Those who are weak-willed and do not wish to be ousted from the group (likely involving an immediate beating) will join in the chant, even if they personally find it repugnant. On the day, at least. They can always drift away from the group some other time.
ii) Another case of strangely prescient camerawork. We had that thread the other day about the woman on the tube carriage.
iii) Strangely, no "related threads" showing below this one. I can't check mid-draft but I thought ToraToraTora got to this topic first.
iv) It is psychologically interesting the way the words "open carriage", on screen, converts into the concept of "empty carriage", in one's head. Yes, I fell for that too and the only thing stopping me getting snarled up in the ensuing mellée was the sheer number of pages which followed.
v) People who know their stations, from habitual use, select a specific carriage door because it lines up with the platform exit at their destination, saving unnecessary walking and time. Important, on the way to work; not as much urgency on the way home but why waste precious seconds there either?
vi) 13 pages and I'm surprised no-one pointed that out.
vii) Controversial, perhaps, but the chant merely self-identifies them as what they are. I have no knowledge of the relevant law but suspect this was a crafty way of side-stepping its boundaries by avoiding use of specific racial epithets. Although the chant (referenced early in this thread) appears to commence just after the shoving, it is only in that coincidental sense (of timing) that it is aimed at Sulemain himself. As commentary on the shoving, it is damning and confessional but not, in itself, racist.
viii) The shoving him off the train was an undeniably racist act and, in my uninformed opinion, is the only thing they can be prosecuted for.
ix) Any racist words used by the fans towards him cannot be heard on the video above the sound of the chanting (arguably, a depersonalised, "safe" chant was deployed to mask any such verbeage) and, thus, independant witnesses, who were within earshot will have to come forward. Needless to say, if their comprehension of English is as minimal as his, their memory of the words used will be equally poor.
x) Does any of us know whether ad-hoc videophone footage is accepted, for crimes of this nature, in French courts (or in UK, for that matter).
xi) Over-quoting (andy) is really bad on the eyes. I'm seeing double! I'm often supportive of your views but am fence-sitting regarding your spat with AOG, here.
xii) Disagreement en masse is not bullying.
xiii) Taking the DA stance with regard to behaviour decried by what seems to be most of the UK was taking a big personal risk. Doing so really called for the DA stance to be made clear *in the opening post*. Failure to do so comes across as a deliberate strategy to fool others into believing that you think the fans have been unjustly singled out or even that you support their actions. This keeps the thread 'on the boil', in the latest posts ticker and generates traffic. Hence my opening remark about click-farming.
Probably my longest post, to date (3740/4000).
My own, disjointed thoughts, in no particular order:-
i) An appalling example of something which many of us merely suspect happens all the time. Once a group of ill-disciplined males, with no sense of responsibilty to their wife and kids and no reluctance to become an embarassment to their parents and wider family, gets above a certain size, they fall-in behind the pack leader. If that individual happens to be a yob, they will all act like yobs; if he happens to be a racist yob they will all act like racist yobs. Those who are weak-willed and do not wish to be ousted from the group (likely involving an immediate beating) will join in the chant, even if they personally find it repugnant. On the day, at least. They can always drift away from the group some other time.
ii) Another case of strangely prescient camerawork. We had that thread the other day about the woman on the tube carriage.
iii) Strangely, no "related threads" showing below this one. I can't check mid-draft but I thought ToraToraTora got to this topic first.
iv) It is psychologically interesting the way the words "open carriage", on screen, converts into the concept of "empty carriage", in one's head. Yes, I fell for that too and the only thing stopping me getting snarled up in the ensuing mellée was the sheer number of pages which followed.
v) People who know their stations, from habitual use, select a specific carriage door because it lines up with the platform exit at their destination, saving unnecessary walking and time. Important, on the way to work; not as much urgency on the way home but why waste precious seconds there either?
vi) 13 pages and I'm surprised no-one pointed that out.
vii) Controversial, perhaps, but the chant merely self-identifies them as what they are. I have no knowledge of the relevant law but suspect this was a crafty way of side-stepping its boundaries by avoiding use of specific racial epithets. Although the chant (referenced early in this thread) appears to commence just after the shoving, it is only in that coincidental sense (of timing) that it is aimed at Sulemain himself. As commentary on the shoving, it is damning and confessional but not, in itself, racist.
viii) The shoving him off the train was an undeniably racist act and, in my uninformed opinion, is the only thing they can be prosecuted for.
ix) Any racist words used by the fans towards him cannot be heard on the video above the sound of the chanting (arguably, a depersonalised, "safe" chant was deployed to mask any such verbeage) and, thus, independant witnesses, who were within earshot will have to come forward. Needless to say, if their comprehension of English is as minimal as his, their memory of the words used will be equally poor.
x) Does any of us know whether ad-hoc videophone footage is accepted, for crimes of this nature, in French courts (or in UK, for that matter).
xi) Over-quoting (andy) is really bad on the eyes. I'm seeing double! I'm often supportive of your views but am fence-sitting regarding your spat with AOG, here.
xii) Disagreement en masse is not bullying.
xiii) Taking the DA stance with regard to behaviour decried by what seems to be most of the UK was taking a big personal risk. Doing so really called for the DA stance to be made clear *in the opening post*. Failure to do so comes across as a deliberate strategy to fool others into believing that you think the fans have been unjustly singled out or even that you support their actions. This keeps the thread 'on the boil', in the latest posts ticker and generates traffic. Hence my opening remark about click-farming.
Probably my longest post, to date (3740/4000).
As I mentioned before this whole incident appears a set up. Why would the guy who filmed the scene, be following the 'victim' Souleyman S. on his camera walking along the platform, BEFORE any incident takes place.
The 'victim' also passes at least one half empty carriage and makes a bee line for the Chelsea carriage with the camera following him.
Very odd.
The 'victim' also passes at least one half empty carriage and makes a bee line for the Chelsea carriage with the camera following him.
Very odd.
By the way, if you'd been watching the BBC rolling news channel, as the story was breaking, you'll have noticed sombody had the brassneck to ring in and claim that the chant was about John Terry.
This was either deliberate misdirection (ie feeble attempted cover-up), or wilfully misinformed (ie had not even stopped to watch/listen to the video clip for themselves) or just someone doing it to get their name on telly (or get the name of someone they wished to make look stupid on telly).
This was either deliberate misdirection (ie feeble attempted cover-up), or wilfully misinformed (ie had not even stopped to watch/listen to the video clip for themselves) or just someone doing it to get their name on telly (or get the name of someone they wished to make look stupid on telly).
Hypognosis, the reference to the song being about John Terry is because the Chelsea chav brigade have sung this since his spat with Anton Ferdinand where he was accused of calling him an 'effing black c***'
Even though the judge said John Terry did actually say those words it was not as an insult but as a challenge as to what he believed had been said to him by Anton Ferdinand.
And if you believe that then you must believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairiy.
And that my friends is why certain Chelsea fans sing that song.
Even though the judge said John Terry did actually say those words it was not as an insult but as a challenge as to what he believed had been said to him by Anton Ferdinand.
And if you believe that then you must believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairiy.
And that my friends is why certain Chelsea fans sing that song.
@PankySmooch
I am aware that they have a John Terry chant. The fact remains that the words "John" and "Terry" are not among the words heard on the video. Whoever rang the beeb had got the wrong end of the stick. It could even have been an attempt to drag his name through the mud again.
The story in the link below is only 14hours ago and thus after the abovementioned phone call.
http://
I am aware that they have a John Terry chant. The fact remains that the words "John" and "Terry" are not among the words heard on the video. Whoever rang the beeb had got the wrong end of the stick. It could even have been an attempt to drag his name through the mud again.
The story in the link below is only 14hours ago and thus after the abovementioned phone call.
http://
The John Terry chant is clearly an ironic commentary on the outcome of the Anton Ferdinand spat.
But that chant is, "HE'S racist, A racist, and that's the way we like it".
The fans in Paris were chanting "WE'RE racist WE'RE racist..."
Therefore it was clearly about themselves, not about Terry.
Excellent post above Hypognosis.
But that chant is, "HE'S racist, A racist, and that's the way we like it".
The fans in Paris were chanting "WE'RE racist WE'RE racist..."
Therefore it was clearly about themselves, not about Terry.
Excellent post above Hypognosis.
"Racism works both ways" or its a fake stunt?
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tabourine
Hold on - it is a stunt. I just checked the video on the YouTube channel.\
Are you saying that the Paris train incident might also be a stunt? If so, then it was a remarkably sophisticated one, in that they had to find a black Parisian to be in on it...a man who doesn't speak English.
And expensive too...why not pull the stunt on the London Underground?
That would seem to be a lot more logical.
Hold on - it is a stunt. I just checked the video on the YouTube channel.\
Are you saying that the Paris train incident might also be a stunt? If so, then it was a remarkably sophisticated one, in that they had to find a black Parisian to be in on it...a man who doesn't speak English.
And expensive too...why not pull the stunt on the London Underground?
That would seem to be a lot more logical.
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