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Society & Culture1 min ago
A Bravado Racist Chant Maybe, But A Real Act Of Racism?
272 Answers
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Much has been said and reported about the Chelsea fans behaviour in France, mainly due to the Video obtained by the Guardian.
Well apart from the ridiculous chant from a football crowd, and many of us have become accustomed to these over the years, was it enough for calls for the perpetrators to answer to be banned and face the law?
As far as I could see from the video, the black man was walking along the platform, until he got to the open door of the carriage containing the football crowd.
Now what was said, perhaps we will never know, but instead of the black man trying to board the train was he actually trying to confront these football supporters in an aggressive way, and if he was isn't it obvious that they would try and push him away.
Yes we all know that the crowd were suppose to be shouting "We’re racist, we’re racist, and that’s the way we like it". (because the Guardian has told us that), but in the true football crowd tradition was this just to get back at their opponent.
I am in no way condoning an act of racism if that is what it was, but before you condemn me look at the video again.
Much has been said and reported about the Chelsea fans behaviour in France, mainly due to the Video obtained by the Guardian.
Well apart from the ridiculous chant from a football crowd, and many of us have become accustomed to these over the years, was it enough for calls for the perpetrators to answer to be banned and face the law?
As far as I could see from the video, the black man was walking along the platform, until he got to the open door of the carriage containing the football crowd.
Now what was said, perhaps we will never know, but instead of the black man trying to board the train was he actually trying to confront these football supporters in an aggressive way, and if he was isn't it obvious that they would try and push him away.
Yes we all know that the crowd were suppose to be shouting "We’re racist, we’re racist, and that’s the way we like it". (because the Guardian has told us that), but in the true football crowd tradition was this just to get back at their opponent.
I am in no way condoning an act of racism if that is what it was, but before you condemn me look at the video again.
Answers
If one of this gang had punched someone and put them in hospital would had there been as much uproar? No, I dont think their would. Name calling is now a more serious offence than any violent attack it seems.
15:07 Thu 19th Feb 2015
AOG - " ... but please allow myself to have a mind of my own, without all the false accusations, criticisms and total sarcasm that has been shown towards me so far."
Neither I nor anyone else has even obliquely tried to deny you your right to your opinion, of course you are entitled to it, and no-one would wish to take it away from you.
When it comes to defending the indefensible, that is an entirely different matter.
I spotted way back - post 21 of the 200 at present, that you were presenting an argument as Devil's Advocate, it is a common stance of yours, and I have no problem with it whatever.
However, when you then decide to see responses as personal attacks, then you become personally involved and it is reasonable to deduce that you personally are defending the indefensible - and the responses you have received tend to back up that deduction.
Quite simply - if you post an OP as a DA, then that is there you need to stay - making it clear that the view is not necessarily your own, but is being put forward for the purpose of debate. You cannot change horses midstream and become upset at perceived 'attacks' on you views, unless you are expressing and defending your personal view - which you have thus far failed to do.
So your DA stance is attacked, and you take it personally, which is unreasonable, and should be cleared up for the sake of clarity.
"I also will not tolerate aggression towards me in your vain attempts to make me change my views and thus make me follow to the flock."
Speaking personally, I would not insult you or waste my time attempting to change your view in order to follow the flock, I have considerably more respect for you that that.
"*** Unfortunately at times I did need to lower myself to the same level of some once again, for this I do apologise for. ***"
For myself, I am delighted to accept your apology, but I cannot speak for at least one other poster whom you directly insulted without due course - perhaps a word in her direction would be appropriate while we are all assessing our positions.
Neither I nor anyone else has even obliquely tried to deny you your right to your opinion, of course you are entitled to it, and no-one would wish to take it away from you.
When it comes to defending the indefensible, that is an entirely different matter.
I spotted way back - post 21 of the 200 at present, that you were presenting an argument as Devil's Advocate, it is a common stance of yours, and I have no problem with it whatever.
However, when you then decide to see responses as personal attacks, then you become personally involved and it is reasonable to deduce that you personally are defending the indefensible - and the responses you have received tend to back up that deduction.
Quite simply - if you post an OP as a DA, then that is there you need to stay - making it clear that the view is not necessarily your own, but is being put forward for the purpose of debate. You cannot change horses midstream and become upset at perceived 'attacks' on you views, unless you are expressing and defending your personal view - which you have thus far failed to do.
So your DA stance is attacked, and you take it personally, which is unreasonable, and should be cleared up for the sake of clarity.
"I also will not tolerate aggression towards me in your vain attempts to make me change my views and thus make me follow to the flock."
Speaking personally, I would not insult you or waste my time attempting to change your view in order to follow the flock, I have considerably more respect for you that that.
"*** Unfortunately at times I did need to lower myself to the same level of some once again, for this I do apologise for. ***"
For myself, I am delighted to accept your apology, but I cannot speak for at least one other poster whom you directly insulted without due course - perhaps a word in her direction would be appropriate while we are all assessing our positions.
-- answer removed --
-- answer removed --
andy-hughes
///Other posters though, have a legitimate claim to being gratuitously insulted, and hopefully some redress will be forthcoming. ///
Since you have put yourself up as a self appointed moderator, then perhaps you will discipline those who have been insulting towards me, or would that upset your little crowd of all pals together?
/// Why do you always try and excuse racism, AOG? ///
Where have I tried to excuse racism?
/// AOG...your pathetic excuses to try and justify racism is embarrassing. ///
Ditto
/// He cannot see the man turn his back to the mob. But he sees an empty carriage. All very odd. ///
I made no suggestion of an empty carriage.
/// but if you wish to tame the moral high ground - as you so often do ///
/// you seem keen to be a snit and pick a fight, which is your usual response when you find yourself unable to defend your position.
but I never treat the News section as if it is my own personal fiefdom, as you have done today. ///
/// Best to retire gracefully and return on another, more sensible and reasonable thread - that shouldn't be very difficult. ///
I think some of these (if not all) are your own work.
/// At what point in the clip did you see the empty carriage? ///
See how it catches on, once again I made no remark regarding an empty carriage.
/// Yeah, jno, complete over reaction from a lone man acting all unaggressive!! ///
/// Again...excuses for racism. ///
/// And the Award for continuing to hold a debate position in the face of 100% disagreement, and an increasingly desperate attempt to stir up a 'debate' where one clearly does not exist, goes to ..... ///
Sarcasm.
/// Meanwhile back in the real world the 1840's have been on asking if AOG wants his credibility back. ///
/// You have to be kidding, AOG!! You're looking more and more foolish with every post! ///
Insulting.
/// The fact that you are a regular and long-standing contributor to the AB would suggest that you are fully aware of your right to your opinion, which no-one has questioned at any time. ///
No one has questioned my opinion????????????
Now you have got to be joking.
/// " This would not stand up in any court in the land." ///
/// Maybe not, but we are not in court are we - your point is? ///
My point is, if it wouldn't stand up in a court of law, then it is obvious there is not enough evidence to bring a conviction. Back to where we all started, 'NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE'.
/// I think AOG has flounced off - for all his stating that he is finishing at his usual time. ///
/// He has found himself lacking in any support of his ludicrous bating question, but still defended it to the last, resorting to lashing out when feeling under attack (which is often in my experience). ///
You are being rude again Andy or are you exempt from being so?
/// I will stand toe to toe with anyone in debate, but to call me out for being rude, and then to crudely insult another AB'er who did nothing to deserve it is not the conduct of a gentleman, and I hope he will consider his actions, and apologise with appropriate humility when he re-joins us tomorrow. ///
Perhaps you would care to practice what you preach, and take the time also to chastise others, not just myself.
/// AOG you are an incorrigible crypto-Nazi ///
In closing if this is not an insult I don't know what is, but I see you hadn't the bottle to pull up this ABer, shame on you?
///Other posters though, have a legitimate claim to being gratuitously insulted, and hopefully some redress will be forthcoming. ///
Since you have put yourself up as a self appointed moderator, then perhaps you will discipline those who have been insulting towards me, or would that upset your little crowd of all pals together?
/// Why do you always try and excuse racism, AOG? ///
Where have I tried to excuse racism?
/// AOG...your pathetic excuses to try and justify racism is embarrassing. ///
Ditto
/// He cannot see the man turn his back to the mob. But he sees an empty carriage. All very odd. ///
I made no suggestion of an empty carriage.
/// but if you wish to tame the moral high ground - as you so often do ///
/// you seem keen to be a snit and pick a fight, which is your usual response when you find yourself unable to defend your position.
but I never treat the News section as if it is my own personal fiefdom, as you have done today. ///
/// Best to retire gracefully and return on another, more sensible and reasonable thread - that shouldn't be very difficult. ///
I think some of these (if not all) are your own work.
/// At what point in the clip did you see the empty carriage? ///
See how it catches on, once again I made no remark regarding an empty carriage.
/// Yeah, jno, complete over reaction from a lone man acting all unaggressive!! ///
/// Again...excuses for racism. ///
/// And the Award for continuing to hold a debate position in the face of 100% disagreement, and an increasingly desperate attempt to stir up a 'debate' where one clearly does not exist, goes to ..... ///
Sarcasm.
/// Meanwhile back in the real world the 1840's have been on asking if AOG wants his credibility back. ///
/// You have to be kidding, AOG!! You're looking more and more foolish with every post! ///
Insulting.
/// The fact that you are a regular and long-standing contributor to the AB would suggest that you are fully aware of your right to your opinion, which no-one has questioned at any time. ///
No one has questioned my opinion????????????
Now you have got to be joking.
/// " This would not stand up in any court in the land." ///
/// Maybe not, but we are not in court are we - your point is? ///
My point is, if it wouldn't stand up in a court of law, then it is obvious there is not enough evidence to bring a conviction. Back to where we all started, 'NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE'.
/// I think AOG has flounced off - for all his stating that he is finishing at his usual time. ///
/// He has found himself lacking in any support of his ludicrous bating question, but still defended it to the last, resorting to lashing out when feeling under attack (which is often in my experience). ///
You are being rude again Andy or are you exempt from being so?
/// I will stand toe to toe with anyone in debate, but to call me out for being rude, and then to crudely insult another AB'er who did nothing to deserve it is not the conduct of a gentleman, and I hope he will consider his actions, and apologise with appropriate humility when he re-joins us tomorrow. ///
Perhaps you would care to practice what you preach, and take the time also to chastise others, not just myself.
/// AOG you are an incorrigible crypto-Nazi ///
In closing if this is not an insult I don't know what is, but I see you hadn't the bottle to pull up this ABer, shame on you?
AOG - to have located and collated all those individual posts and regurgitated them in the way you have says a lot more about you than it does about the posters.
In all my time on this site I have never come across any other poster - not one - who so frequently moans about 'personal attacks' in the way that you do so regularly.
Perhaps you are simply too sensitive for this kind of debate?
If you are so easily upset / angered / insulted / offended, then maybe you should refrain from entering into debates - and certainly from starting them.
I know that everyone else on the site - from newbies to regulars, seems to accept gainsaying of their views in the spirit in which they are offered - yes with some sarcasm sometimes, yes with some hostility occasionally, but never with the constant never-changing sense of martyrdom that comes from you.
I have spoken up for one other AB'er on this thread, not because I am a 'self-appointed moderator', but because I don't like gratuitous insults, and if you are as sensitive as you appear, then you should be aware of how it feels, and not indulge, or be willing to apologise personally if you do.
I for one will be here tomorrow - as always - but with the small proviso that any future moaning about insults and 'attacks' coming from you will be ignored as the self-centred bleating they have become.
Something to think about - and if you think this post is rude and insulting, and come back with more agonising, then you merely prove my point.
No-one else does it - maybe you should think about why it's just you.
In all my time on this site I have never come across any other poster - not one - who so frequently moans about 'personal attacks' in the way that you do so regularly.
Perhaps you are simply too sensitive for this kind of debate?
If you are so easily upset / angered / insulted / offended, then maybe you should refrain from entering into debates - and certainly from starting them.
I know that everyone else on the site - from newbies to regulars, seems to accept gainsaying of their views in the spirit in which they are offered - yes with some sarcasm sometimes, yes with some hostility occasionally, but never with the constant never-changing sense of martyrdom that comes from you.
I have spoken up for one other AB'er on this thread, not because I am a 'self-appointed moderator', but because I don't like gratuitous insults, and if you are as sensitive as you appear, then you should be aware of how it feels, and not indulge, or be willing to apologise personally if you do.
I for one will be here tomorrow - as always - but with the small proviso that any future moaning about insults and 'attacks' coming from you will be ignored as the self-centred bleating they have become.
Something to think about - and if you think this post is rude and insulting, and come back with more agonising, then you merely prove my point.
No-one else does it - maybe you should think about why it's just you.
andy-hughes
*** Then why was it that only the black guy wanted to board that train, as you can see from the video there were many peoples standing at the back of the platform, why wasn't they also trying to board the train?" ***
/// You can't play DA and injured waif - make your mind up and let us
know. ///
Shot yourself in the foot this time, you can't answer the question put before you so you reply with an insult, isn't that the type of thing that you are against, when you populously put yourself up as the AB person who is constantly insulted on behalf of others?
*** Then why was it that only the black guy wanted to board that train, as you can see from the video there were many peoples standing at the back of the platform, why wasn't they also trying to board the train?" ***
/// You can't play DA and injured waif - make your mind up and let us
know. ///
Shot yourself in the foot this time, you can't answer the question put before you so you reply with an insult, isn't that the type of thing that you are against, when you populously put yourself up as the AB person who is constantly insulted on behalf of others?
-- answer removed --
andy-hughes
/// Except on planet OAG, the antagonistic black commuter saw his opportunity to face down a load of football hooligans with his own confrontation, and got what he richly deserved. ///
I am getting rather fed up with constantly having to take you up on your insulting and incorrect posts. Where have I ever said either on this Earth or AOG's earth (as you so rudely put) that he got what he richly deserved?
Or was that you also acting in a troll like fashion?
/// Except on planet OAG, the antagonistic black commuter saw his opportunity to face down a load of football hooligans with his own confrontation, and got what he richly deserved. ///
I am getting rather fed up with constantly having to take you up on your insulting and incorrect posts. Where have I ever said either on this Earth or AOG's earth (as you so rudely put) that he got what he richly deserved?
Or was that you also acting in a troll like fashion?
aog - "andy-hughes
*** Then why was it that only the black guy wanted to board that train, as you can see from the video there were many peoples standing at the back of the platform, why wasn't they also trying to board the train?" ***
/// You can't play DA and injured waif - make your mind up and let us
know. ///
Shot yourself in the foot this time, you can't answer the question put before you so you reply with an insult, isn't that the type of thing that you are against, when you populously put yourself up as the AB person who is constantly insulted on behalf of others?
andy-hughes
/// Except on planet OAG, the antagonistic black commuter saw his opportunity to face down a load of football hooligans with his own confrontation, and got what he richly deserved. ///
I am getting rather fed up with constantly having to take you up on your insulting and incorrect posts. Where have I ever said either on this Earth or AOG's earth (as you so rudely put) that he got what he richly deserved?
Or was that you also acting in a troll like fashion?"
Ignored - as advised.
*** Then why was it that only the black guy wanted to board that train, as you can see from the video there were many peoples standing at the back of the platform, why wasn't they also trying to board the train?" ***
/// You can't play DA and injured waif - make your mind up and let us
know. ///
Shot yourself in the foot this time, you can't answer the question put before you so you reply with an insult, isn't that the type of thing that you are against, when you populously put yourself up as the AB person who is constantly insulted on behalf of others?
andy-hughes
/// Except on planet OAG, the antagonistic black commuter saw his opportunity to face down a load of football hooligans with his own confrontation, and got what he richly deserved. ///
I am getting rather fed up with constantly having to take you up on your insulting and incorrect posts. Where have I ever said either on this Earth or AOG's earth (as you so rudely put) that he got what he richly deserved?
Or was that you also acting in a troll like fashion?"
Ignored - as advised.
divebuddy
You wrote:
"It's incredible alright. It's incredible that this event attracts hundreds of responses while Talbot's "no oyinbos here" is more or less ignored."
You're not comparing like for like.
If someone from 'the left' (or whatever demographic you're referring to), tried to play Devil's Advocate and wrote, "We have no evidence ex that she didn't write those notes herself to get herself rehoused", then there would be something to argue about.
Note - this thread doesn't have much about the incident itself - it's full of arguments against AOG's position (either his own position, or that of devil's advocate).
You see the difference?
You wrote:
"It's incredible alright. It's incredible that this event attracts hundreds of responses while Talbot's "no oyinbos here" is more or less ignored."
You're not comparing like for like.
If someone from 'the left' (or whatever demographic you're referring to), tried to play Devil's Advocate and wrote, "We have no evidence ex that she didn't write those notes herself to get herself rehoused", then there would be something to argue about.
Note - this thread doesn't have much about the incident itself - it's full of arguments against AOG's position (either his own position, or that of devil's advocate).
You see the difference?
Andy-Hughes
/// For myself, I am delighted to accept your apology, but I cannot speak for at least one other poster whom you directly insulted without due course - perhaps a word in her direction would be appropriate while we are all assessing our positions. ///
There you go again, I do not need you or anyone else to tell me who to apologise to on a personal basis, especially to a person who deliberately sits on the by-line time and time again just to direct insults towards myself.
When that person apologises to me personally then I will be gentlemanly enough to return an apology.
/// For myself, I am delighted to accept your apology, but I cannot speak for at least one other poster whom you directly insulted without due course - perhaps a word in her direction would be appropriate while we are all assessing our positions. ///
There you go again, I do not need you or anyone else to tell me who to apologise to on a personal basis, especially to a person who deliberately sits on the by-line time and time again just to direct insults towards myself.
When that person apologises to me personally then I will be gentlemanly enough to return an apology.
-- answer removed --
AOG
Do you think, with the evidence we have to hand, that the Chelsea fans were being racist in disallowing the man from boarding the train?
What would they have to have done to make you think they were being racist?
I'm imagining that they would have had to have been directly racially abusive as well as violently shoving the man off the train?
Do you think, with the evidence we have to hand, that the Chelsea fans were being racist in disallowing the man from boarding the train?
What would they have to have done to make you think they were being racist?
I'm imagining that they would have had to have been directly racially abusive as well as violently shoving the man off the train?
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