Ladies Only Swimming?

[mushroom25]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5223641/Hampstead-ladies-say-swimming-pond-not-gender-fluid.html

since it's becoming increasingly accepted that gender is less about chromosomes, appearance or reproductive ability but more a matter of state of mind not necessarily requiring reassignment intervention (and the gender recognition act 2004 is likely to be amended to reflect this), are the "X-X" denizens of the Kenwood Ladies Pond Association being a tad unreasonable?

[pixie374]

What actually does two years "living as a woman" mean anyway?

[Mamyalynne]

Some explanation of what is required during those two years here Pixie.

Section

Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC)

http://qalliance.org.uk/trans-glossary

[pixie374]

Thanks mamya x it says //Living full-time as the other gender in society, for a certain period of time, so that the person can prove that it is what they want, and that they can function in that role//

Maybe they don't know either.

[237SJ]

Re the certificate. I seem to recall that people can self certify now which does make one wonder if men who claim to identify as woman will have carte blanch to go into any female only areas that they choose

[pixie374]

It shouldn't. Mamya's link above about the certificate show that they do recognise sex and gender as different things. In which case a "gender recognition" certificate could only say "masculine, feminine neither" etc. It has no bearing on their sex.

[sp1814]

pixie374

I should clarify. The correct term is for a man who undergoes reassignment surgery is 'trans woman'.

[pixie374]

It is.

[mushroom25]

SP wrote:- //When someone transitions, they have to spend two year living as a member of the opposite sex, whilst undergoing a battery of psychological tests by mental health professionals. This is critical to verify that the patient actually has gender dysmorphia. //

when the government reviews the gender recognition act 2004 (which they've promised to do in 2018), all of that dysmorphia verification stuff is expected to be swept away. all that will be required for gender reassignment is a self declaration, and hey-presto, legally regendered, no surgery or intrusive medical questioning required.

not sure if someone who is born X-Y and is legally female by virtue of self declaration would be accepted as such by the International Sports organisations - there might be some aspects of what's being proposed that the government hasn't thought through yet.

[naomi24]

SP at 17:49, I’m not talking about drag queens. I’m talking about men who present themselves as women and tell me that if I dare refer to them as ‘he’ or ‘him’ I’m likely to get a slap. Dress it up however you like, but wanting it to be so doesn’t make it so. Those people are not women.

[New Judge]

“…all of that dysmorphia verification stuff is expected to be swept away. all that will be required for gender reassignment is a self declaration,…”

Exactly. And will this “self-declaration” be a once-and-for-all or will it be liable to be updated as and when the declarer fancies it? Can (s)he spend the summer as a bloke and the winter as a woman? Let’s say he is born a man with all the required external tackle, “self certificates” himself to a woman. Will all the women at the local swimming baths be happy to see “her” stripping off in the changing rooms (and more importantly will all the genuine women feel comfortable getting changed in front of “her”.

The whole idea is a ridiculous nonsense and jeopardises the recognition that (the very few) people with genuine gender recognition problems deserve. I’m afraid that people with seriously deranged points of view are holding sway over people who should know better. There are genuine reasons for separating the sexes for various specific purposes. That separation will be blurred or lost entirely if anybody can simply declare a sex-change by signing a declaration. It will lead to serious problems at the hands of people who make such declarations for nefarious purposes. To criminalise or castigate people who believe this and either refuse or neglect to take heed of that declaration is outrageous. As I said earlier, the lunatics truly have taken over the asylum.

[sp1814]

naomi24

Yes, they are women. They're trans women.

[naomi24]

//the lunatics truly have taken over the asylum. //

Indeed they have,

[pixie374]

Trans women are not women.

[naomi24]

SP, so if they're trans-women what, as a real woman, am I?

[sp1814]

NJ

// That separation will be blurred or lost entirely if anybody can simply declare a sex-change by signing a declaration.//

No it won't, because only a tiny proportion of the population will go down that road.

According to research by the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (http://www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Prevalence2011.pdf), only about 0.2% of the population presented themselves for treatment of gender dysphoria.

It's nothing for us to worry about.

[sp1814]

naomi24

You would be regarded as a woman, because you were not born biologically male.

Trans women were born biologically as men, but have undergo hormone replacement and surgical operations so that their bodies more closely reflect how their brains are wired.

[sp1814]

pixie374

Yes they are. They're a type of woman.

[pixie374]

They aren't at all- they are intersex, but closer to male.

[naomi24]

SP, I understand the process, but whatever process they submit themselves to does not make them the same as me or Pixie so do stop telling us they are women. They are not. Faux women is the closest they can ever be.

[New Judge]

“Yes, they are women. They're trans women.”

Just you accept such a preposterous term as genuine makes the term none the less ridiculous, sp. Of course you recognising it presents no particular problems. They only begin when vote-seeking politicians are similarly taken in. They succumb to ludicrous propositions by introducing badly thought through legislation which will acquiesce to those unreasonable demands but will introduce all sorts of problems. As has been pointed out, it is doubtful that much thought to the knock-on effects of the “self-certification” proposal will bring. But that won’t matter to those introducing it. They will long have sailed off into the sunset.