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Shamima Begum Citizenship
Just heard on ITV Newa that she has been stripped of her British Citizenship
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And, Ellipsis, by the way, on your (and others') use of the word "radicalisation". Absorbed, obviously, by constant repetition by the media. An illusionist's trick: look there while I prepare to deceive you.
So, "radicalisation". Is that a "Shazoom" or an "Abracadabra" thing? Deus ex machina? Out there on the internet. "Good God, where did that come from?". Is this in Laurence Krauss's terms "A Universe from Nothing"? This idea that somebody sets himself up as the successor (that's "caliph" to you) and decides its his and God's mission to force the whole world (that's "jihad") to bend the knee to Allah? All came out of the blue, did it? Invented by a nutter fifteen years ago?
Let's start with the perfect model of conduct and piety, the Prophet Mohammed. And what he taught. Here's the first bit: the religious obligation to extend the rule of Islam (the "Dar al-Islam") over the unbelieving world ("Dar al-Harb - the "house of war") is Allah's charge to his Messenger, it's a Divine obligation on Mohammed himself.
And here's the second bit: all faithful followers of the Messenger have to be part, by whatever means, of the struggle (jihad) to achieve that holy aim.
Read any of its foundational texts; simply observe its 1,400 year old history.
These are not "radical" concepts" and they are not new: they are mainstream and as old as Islam itself. Ms Begum (who says in one interview a"I quite recently got more religious") could have been "radicalised" by just as easily any one of (a)listening to a "radical" daddy, (b)reading the Koran, or (c)attending Friday prayers.
"Violent extremism" (as some like to call it) is not about belief, it's about means. Basically that amounts to where the individual Muslim places herself on the spectrum between extreme enthusiasm for Mohammed's methods at one end and total rejection of them at the other. As long as you have Islam you will have Muslims at the hardest end of the Moh scale.
So, "radicalisation". Is that a "Shazoom" or an "Abracadabra" thing? Deus ex machina? Out there on the internet. "Good God, where did that come from?". Is this in Laurence Krauss's terms "A Universe from Nothing"? This idea that somebody sets himself up as the successor (that's "caliph" to you) and decides its his and God's mission to force the whole world (that's "jihad") to bend the knee to Allah? All came out of the blue, did it? Invented by a nutter fifteen years ago?
Let's start with the perfect model of conduct and piety, the Prophet Mohammed. And what he taught. Here's the first bit: the religious obligation to extend the rule of Islam (the "Dar al-Islam") over the unbelieving world ("Dar al-Harb - the "house of war") is Allah's charge to his Messenger, it's a Divine obligation on Mohammed himself.
And here's the second bit: all faithful followers of the Messenger have to be part, by whatever means, of the struggle (jihad) to achieve that holy aim.
Read any of its foundational texts; simply observe its 1,400 year old history.
These are not "radical" concepts" and they are not new: they are mainstream and as old as Islam itself. Ms Begum (who says in one interview a"I quite recently got more religious") could have been "radicalised" by just as easily any one of (a)listening to a "radical" daddy, (b)reading the Koran, or (c)attending Friday prayers.
"Violent extremism" (as some like to call it) is not about belief, it's about means. Basically that amounts to where the individual Muslim places herself on the spectrum between extreme enthusiasm for Mohammed's methods at one end and total rejection of them at the other. As long as you have Islam you will have Muslims at the hardest end of the Moh scale.
Some interesting ideas buried amongst the chaff, but I am with Ellipsis. Somebody (sorry, I am winding down after a long day and I have read the thread but didn't take notes and I'm not going to spend my last hour scrolling backwards and forwards), somebody said there are 15-year olds who act 18 and Shamima is one of them. Really? She is 19 but sounds immature for 12.
I realise that there are some very brave people sitting between a keyboard and a bottle of wine, but I think she could well have damned herself even with her mild concerns about the changes she has seen in Da'esh. In a camp of 36-39,000, including unknowable numbers of fighters and sympathisers, the journalist was extremely irresponsible to identify her so clearly, way up there with Boris Johnson in throwing. Women under the bus to further their own careers. Ms Begum, knew she could be killed for what she said, but there are posters here suggesting we send people to interrogate her in a country with no diplomatic representation.
Begum was groomed in this country, as Ellipsis pointed out, and trafficked to Syria to be sexually abused and used as a baby farm. That is uncomfortable, but the alternative even more so. Was a child able to leave the country without authorisation through Heathrow without adult help or connivance? If so, who was the Home Secretary at the time? Oh. Messy.
Anybody who thinks there is a world of difference between vulnerable girls groomed for sexual abuse and trafficked within this country and those groomed here but trafficked to another country for the same purpose possibly needs to look at their own morality. Predatory adults; vulnerable children; grooming; isolation from support; trafficking for sex. The difference is the bait: drink and drugs in one case, religion and politics in the other.
She has been in Syria for four years but suddenly we discover she might be eligible for dual nationality. Why did we not check this four years ago? Who was Home Secretary in 2015? Oh, yeah, sorry.
I saw today that her initial response to the Manchester Arena bomb was shock, but she was persuaded it was revenge for Syrian children killed in western air raids. Again she had risked her life for saying the wrong thing but being brainwashed afterwards. Ki
I am going to bed now, but consider the: the BBC have interviewed at least two men who volunteered as adults to go and kill in Syria. They are both back in UK now, one seemingly cross he was not given a medal, the other, the City banker, thinks being arrested for going to act as a hostile fighter in somebody else's country has stopped him getting a new job. My heart bleeds. They went to kill and they managed just fine.
I realise that there are some very brave people sitting between a keyboard and a bottle of wine, but I think she could well have damned herself even with her mild concerns about the changes she has seen in Da'esh. In a camp of 36-39,000, including unknowable numbers of fighters and sympathisers, the journalist was extremely irresponsible to identify her so clearly, way up there with Boris Johnson in throwing. Women under the bus to further their own careers. Ms Begum, knew she could be killed for what she said, but there are posters here suggesting we send people to interrogate her in a country with no diplomatic representation.
Begum was groomed in this country, as Ellipsis pointed out, and trafficked to Syria to be sexually abused and used as a baby farm. That is uncomfortable, but the alternative even more so. Was a child able to leave the country without authorisation through Heathrow without adult help or connivance? If so, who was the Home Secretary at the time? Oh. Messy.
Anybody who thinks there is a world of difference between vulnerable girls groomed for sexual abuse and trafficked within this country and those groomed here but trafficked to another country for the same purpose possibly needs to look at their own morality. Predatory adults; vulnerable children; grooming; isolation from support; trafficking for sex. The difference is the bait: drink and drugs in one case, religion and politics in the other.
She has been in Syria for four years but suddenly we discover she might be eligible for dual nationality. Why did we not check this four years ago? Who was Home Secretary in 2015? Oh, yeah, sorry.
I saw today that her initial response to the Manchester Arena bomb was shock, but she was persuaded it was revenge for Syrian children killed in western air raids. Again she had risked her life for saying the wrong thing but being brainwashed afterwards. Ki
I am going to bed now, but consider the: the BBC have interviewed at least two men who volunteered as adults to go and kill in Syria. They are both back in UK now, one seemingly cross he was not given a medal, the other, the City banker, thinks being arrested for going to act as a hostile fighter in somebody else's country has stopped him getting a new job. My heart bleeds. They went to kill and they managed just fine.
Even scarier than Ellipsis.
Trafficked to Syria? You need to wake up and smell what you’re shovelling.
It’s funny how those who see her of low intelligence.
I say she’s rather clever, resourceful and adept for having made it there at the tender age of 15 with a steely determination to succeed.
If she’s allowed back here she’ll be another martyr for Islamic terrorists. Better she goes to Bangladesh as I said earlier, we don’t need the added cost of protecting/surveilling this piece of detritus.
Trafficked to Syria? You need to wake up and smell what you’re shovelling.
It’s funny how those who see her of low intelligence.
I say she’s rather clever, resourceful and adept for having made it there at the tender age of 15 with a steely determination to succeed.
If she’s allowed back here she’ll be another martyr for Islamic terrorists. Better she goes to Bangladesh as I said earlier, we don’t need the added cost of protecting/surveilling this piece of detritus.
Comparing this woman to the young girls who were abused, and who are still being abused, is an insult. Claiming she is a victim is short-sighted in the extreme because, in effect, it designates each and every Muslim, all charged with the task of furthering the cause of Islam in whichever way is available to them, a victim. They are not. It is highly unlikely that you’ll ever encounter a Muslim who will tell you that Mohammed was wrong, that the Koran is wrong, or that any aspect of main stream Islam is wrong – and if they do, never forget that Taqiyya – a system that, in order to further their aims, allows the faithful to lie, is an ever-ready tool. Don't be a useful idiot.
Why the need for the 'useful idiot' cliche?
I don't support Ellipsis but I think his/her point was based on the fact that she was a child when she was 'trafficked/radicalised/taken in...'- I doubt very much he/she is saying " each and every Muslim, all charged with the task of furthering the cause of Islam in whichever way is available to them" is a victim
I don't support Ellipsis but I think his/her point was based on the fact that she was a child when she was 'trafficked/radicalised/taken in...'- I doubt very much he/she is saying " each and every Muslim, all charged with the task of furthering the cause of Islam in whichever way is available to them" is a victim
I 'hear' what you're 'saying JF, but it is not a view I can agree with. All that I've read indicates intended action by a resourceful individual regardless of age.
We are all the product of our past experiences but all have to be held responsible for our actions. Sex abuse us clearly against the will of the victim. This differs from religious teaching as going off the aid violent invaders is deliberately chosen.
And in any case, no nation should be expected to take in someone who has left and acted against that nation, and supporting the Daesh qualifies as that. One understands that international law has an unfixed loophole regarding citizenship that needs tackling immediately, but in the meanwhile, if the "mother's nationality" aspect means she can be a Bangladeshi, then there's the answer.
We are all the product of our past experiences but all have to be held responsible for our actions. Sex abuse us clearly against the will of the victim. This differs from religious teaching as going off the aid violent invaders is deliberately chosen.
And in any case, no nation should be expected to take in someone who has left and acted against that nation, and supporting the Daesh qualifies as that. One understands that international law has an unfixed loophole regarding citizenship that needs tackling immediately, but in the meanwhile, if the "mother's nationality" aspect means she can be a Bangladeshi, then there's the answer.
fiction-factory, she's not a radicalised convert. She was raised in Islam - and hence indoctrinated from birth. Precisely the point I'm making about all Muslims.
//Why the need for the 'useful idiot' cliche? //
It isn't a cliché. It's describes very ably those who find reasons to excuse the inexcusable.
//Why the need for the 'useful idiot' cliche? //
It isn't a cliché. It's describes very ably those who find reasons to excuse the inexcusable.
erm back to Shameemz citizenship after that sideline
this one was so good I have double printed it:
The leading case is al-Jazza and the leading opinion is by Lord thingey and it really is straightforward
if she gorrit ( bangladeshi nationality ) then they can ( deprive her of Brit nationality ) and
if she CAN gerrit but done sad all to gerrit then they cant
this is enshirined in his lordship saying nationality is a fact ( like she gorrit yeah) and not a possibility ( like she can gerrit yeah den ?)
BUT - ( I cd be a lawyer looking for a fee ) it also depends on what bangladeshi nationality law says -
like it might confer nationality whether or not it is applied for . The Sadge may well know more about Bangla nationality law than I do
( diplomatic immunity ( completely different) is like that - you have it - you dont apply for it)
Isnt there a met police high up piling in on the side of the family ? blimey I bet HE gets the top job later hur hur hur.
Any Asians and Indians ( and Bangluz) out there?
Begum just means 'lady' innit?
it is a referent / honorific like Mr or Mrs ?
this one was so good I have double printed it:
The leading case is al-Jazza and the leading opinion is by Lord thingey and it really is straightforward
if she gorrit ( bangladeshi nationality ) then they can ( deprive her of Brit nationality ) and
if she CAN gerrit but done sad all to gerrit then they cant
this is enshirined in his lordship saying nationality is a fact ( like she gorrit yeah) and not a possibility ( like she can gerrit yeah den ?)
BUT - ( I cd be a lawyer looking for a fee ) it also depends on what bangladeshi nationality law says -
like it might confer nationality whether or not it is applied for . The Sadge may well know more about Bangla nationality law than I do
( diplomatic immunity ( completely different) is like that - you have it - you dont apply for it)
Isnt there a met police high up piling in on the side of the family ? blimey I bet HE gets the top job later hur hur hur.
Any Asians and Indians ( and Bangluz) out there?
Begum just means 'lady' innit?
it is a referent / honorific like Mr or Mrs ?
ah- guilty when born, never a victim. Useful idiot is a patronisng phrase Naomi as you well know. Your way of posting has the opposite effect though to what you intend- you play to the crowd that agrees with you but you manage to succeed in putting off those who might otherwise have agreed with you. Just when i think we agree on something (eg not allowing Shamima back) your posts make me think maybe Ellipses has a point
// It's describes very ably those who find reasons to excuse the inexcusable.//
erm nope again - it was used by Lenin to describe fellow travellers for the Soviet system in the twenties ...
so to use it here is to join those who think
she dresses like a nun
or
she despite being muslim evinces Christian like qualities like repentance and forgiveness
er yeah OK agreed nigh ....
erm nope again - it was used by Lenin to describe fellow travellers for the Soviet system in the twenties ...
so to use it here is to join those who think
she dresses like a nun
or
she despite being muslim evinces Christian like qualities like repentance and forgiveness
er yeah OK agreed nigh ....
Do people really think if she was allowed back she'd have any kind of freedom? Purlees she'd be stalked like prey. And i beleive she would rat out the ISIS she claims to now not like, if she wants safety in UK that bad, then why wouldn't she?
Also think she can now go back to ISIS after all this?
If she's got secret intentions or not our special services are not stupid and people are implying here they'd let her stroll around town with explosives. Get real.
Also think she can now go back to ISIS after all this?
If she's got secret intentions or not our special services are not stupid and people are implying here they'd let her stroll around town with explosives. Get real.
// spath, that adds nothing to the discussion - but carry on if you must.//
oh god I dont believe this ! - carry on if you must spaff, everyone on AB does !
Meanwhile boys and girls - the citizenship issue
the latest court case we are agreed says that potential citizenship is not enough to deprive someone of Brit nationality
BUT on the beeb just now
Farhad Islam - immigtration expert offered that Bangla law gives those children born in Britain - automatic bangla citizenship - - -( until 21 when it lapses)
oo er mrs not many people knew that 5 mins ago ....
the beeb hack also said - and Dutch !
and he said he didnt know about Dutch domeestic law
so the Sadge may well have got it right
oh and another fing
making someone stateless may be against international law ( so what Nigh says ) but is also in contravention of s 40 of the Nationality Act 1981
The Secretary of State may not make an order under subsection (2) if he is satisfied that the order would make a person stateless.
Iknow all you ABers were wondering
oh god I dont believe this ! - carry on if you must spaff, everyone on AB does !
Meanwhile boys and girls - the citizenship issue
the latest court case we are agreed says that potential citizenship is not enough to deprive someone of Brit nationality
BUT on the beeb just now
Farhad Islam - immigtration expert offered that Bangla law gives those children born in Britain - automatic bangla citizenship - - -( until 21 when it lapses)
oo er mrs not many people knew that 5 mins ago ....
the beeb hack also said - and Dutch !
and he said he didnt know about Dutch domeestic law
so the Sadge may well have got it right
oh and another fing
making someone stateless may be against international law ( so what Nigh says ) but is also in contravention of s 40 of the Nationality Act 1981
The Secretary of State may not make an order under subsection (2) if he is satisfied that the order would make a person stateless.
Iknow all you ABers were wondering
