Gordon Brown, "Uk Could Become A Failed State" ......

[ToraToraTora]

https://news.sky.com/story/pm-must-reform-the-union-or-risk-uk-becoming-a-failed-state-12198125
Well if it does it'll be primarily your beloved Noo Labour's fault me old china, for enacting the devolution catastrophe. Is it time to reverse that and bring the Union back together? TBH I think England will thrive without the millstones of Wales, Scotland and NI anyway so it's them that need to get their April in gear.

[ToraToraTora]

untitled: "the British are giving up on Britain and I think that is profoundly sad" - once again you let the tail wag the dog, if anyone is giving up on Britain it's wee jimmy et al in Scotland. We don't understand what more we can do to make the UK palatable for them. They seem to be determined to find someone else to be dependent on. You and others keep laying the responsibility at the door of 92% of us but we are baffled as to what is expected of us. Ok ok we are told to be more accommodating, understanding etc but what does that mean? shower them with gifts? give them their own way on everything they want? Make Ian Blackford PM? Make wee jimmy Empress of the UK? what? we don't get it we really don't.

The fact is that devolution was always going to end here, abolish the Lords (please!) but that wont matter, Queen Nicola has a sniff, she wants to go to international Summits, she wants to be in the G150, gallivanting about on Scot Force one!. She wants an Embassy in London and Edinburgh(I assume we will be allowed one) and all the trappings of being a "world leader", she does not care what price her people have to pay.

[New Judge]

//You would not be so dismissive if the concept of being British meant anything to you but it does to me.//

I'm immensely proud to be British. The difference between the two of us is that my pride will not diminish one scrap should Scotland gain its independence. Britain is about the place I live and the people who want to remain British. It is the Scots who may be leaving the political construct that is the United Kingdom, not me. There's nothing I can do about it and it will be their loss not mine.

[ToraToraTora]

This is a spoof but a bit close to home I think:

[Ellipsis]

> I don't agree, we would still be a kingdom and we'd still be united, Scotland is not even mentioned in the name.

I don't think I can put it any more plainly than I already have, but I'll have one more go.

The "Kingdom" in "United Kingdom" is the "Kingdom of Great Britain". This kingdom united the kingdoms of England (including Wales) and Scotland to form a single kingdom encompassing the whole island of Great Britain and its outlying islands, with the exception of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.

Note "Scotland" above. That's where Scotland comes into it. The kingdom of Scotland was joined with the kingdom of England to create the kingdom of Great Britain. Scotland is therefore mentioned in the name "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" just as much as England is, because the kingdom of Scotland was joined with the kingdom of England to create the kingdom of Great Britain that is a key part of the name of the UK, which is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."

If Scotland leaves the UK, the kingdom of Great Britain no longer exists. The UK, being the union of that kingdom with Northern Ireland, therefore also no longer exists.

[ToraToraTora]

ellipsis: "I don't think I can put it any more plainly than I already have, but I'll have one more go." - don't bother what you write is your opinion, not fact, come back when you can find me a constitutional expert that agrees with you, then I will evaluate what they have said. I'm bored with trying to talk sense to those that are impervious to it.

[Ellipsis]

The article that you linked to, with your own expert, puts it the same way Tora. He, not me, writes:

Article 1 would certainly have to be repealed because it says: “…the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall … forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN…

[Untitled]

//I'm immensely proud to be British. The difference between the two of us is that my pride will not diminish one scrap should Scotland gain its independence//

So proud that you're completely indifferent to the British state breaking apart... what a strange pride it is you have. That's like saying "I'm patriotic but I don't care what happens to my country" - meaningless.

[ToraToraTora]

read the title, what does it say? It says the act would not be repealed 10 out of 25 articles will need amending. The act of union will remain.

[ToraToraTora]

//Most of the Act of Union would survive Scottish “independence”// - note that even on this Scottish site the word independence is in quotes!

[Ellipsis]

It says "Most of the Act of Union" - but not article 1.

And recognise the article for what it is ... a poke in your eye.

If you don't know, and aren't prepared to find out, how your country got its name and why it's call what it is, I can't help any further.

But making it up for yourself won't help once the dissolution happens. As I said, the UK will have to get itself a new name, and I think the most likely candidate is "United Kingdom" - even though it would be a nonsense.

[ToraToraTora]

stop it with your miravaudage, ellipsis, I have a very good understanding of history and the definitions and clearly a different interpretation to you. If your view had any support you'd find someone on the whole internet that is an expert, you haven't so it just remains your opinion NOT fact.

[THECORBYLOON]

TORATORATORA, do you have an expert to support your opinion on the name of the Former United Kingdom?

[naomi24]

Abject failure Gordon Brown may be on to something - albeit in his own inimitable cockeyed way. Since the Scottish independence referendum took place before the EU referendum was more than a twinkle Scotland should be given another shot at it - although in the event of a different outcome it must accept that it is very likely to become the failed state of Gordon’s prediction. The rest of us will continue to thrive as the United Kingdom.

[ToraToraTora]

TCL, no, but I'm with the status quo, if you think it'll change then you need to come up with why.

[ToraToraTora]

the second of my links does appear to be from someone with a lot of legal knowledge and they say in the title that the union act will not go, 10 out of 25 articles will need amending.

[Ellipsis]

Proof? OK ... Let's start with a speech from the Prime Minister in 2020:

----------------------------
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-minister-opening-statement-second-reading-of-the-ukim-bill
The creation of our United Kingdom that has stood for centuries by the Acts of Union of 1707 and 1801 was not simply a political event but an act of conscious economic integration that laid the foundations of the world’s first industrial revolution and the prosperity we enjoy today.
----------------------------

This shows that, according to the Prime Minister at least, the creation of the United Kingdom comes from the Acts of Union of 1707 and 1801.

The 1801 reference is the Irish part, which we can leave out here. The Acts of Union in 1707 were two Acts of Parliament: the Union with Scotland Act 1706 passed by the Parliament of England, and the Union with England Act passed in 1707 by the Parliament of Scotland. They put into effect the terms of the Treaty of Union that had been agreed on 22 July 1706, following negotiation between commissioners representing the parliaments of the two countries. By the two Acts, the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland — which at the time were separate states with separate legislatures, but with the same monarch — were, in the words of the Treaty, "United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain".

Some Government links among many others confirming this:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/citizenship/rise_parliament/transcripts/articles_union.htm
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Ann/6/11
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7/data.xht?view=snippet&wrap=true
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/image-gallery/doors-open-day/the-articles-of-union

[ToraToraTora]

you are just confirming what we know, not what will happen. You still haven't found anything that says the UK cannot exist if Scotland leaves.

[Ellipsis]

I'm saying the UK can't be called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland if Scotland leaves, because it literally will not be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[ToraToraTora]

yes it will. Find me an expert that agrees with you.

[jim360]

The Kingdoms which were united were England and Scotland. I don't think it's controversial that the name UK will, at least, no longer be appropriate if Scotland leaves.