Crosswords1 min ago
Jab Passports After All Adults Have Been Offered A Vaccine?
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Fair enough?
Fair enough?
Answers
I fly a fair bit - correction - I did fly a fair bit before the world went mad, usually at least half a dozen times a year, and I cannot remember the last time my passport wasn't scanned at each end, whether it be by somebody in a booth or self-
07:57 Fri 26th Mar 2021
tomus: "So what should the approach be then Woofgang? People not in possession of a vaccine passport never allowed to leave their house again, forcibly injected, or what?" - of course not we are a libertarian state, no one will be forced, locked up or any of those things. Those with medical exemption will be included, they are very very very few. The anti vaxers will find life more and more restrictive. No entry to many places, no public transport, certainly no international travel etc.
I think you mean "not an authoritarian" state.
But just lets exclude the people we don't approve of :-)
Anti-vaxxers are largely idiots, but that traditionally hasn't been a reason for excluding people from society, not here anyway.
All this is the stuff of uncomfortable nightmares, and I hope it remains so
But just lets exclude the people we don't approve of :-)
Anti-vaxxers are largely idiots, but that traditionally hasn't been a reason for excluding people from society, not here anyway.
All this is the stuff of uncomfortable nightmares, and I hope it remains so
Early on Boris was being accused of being too Libertarian to take the necessary tough measures and did so in some cases after the optimum time. Now he's being accused of creating an authoritarian dictatorship! The common theme here is that it does not matter what the PM does his detractors will find something to wet their alans over.
Pixie "I think realistically, it will have to be each to their own risk, in the end. A passport won't help, if it can't differentiate between "can't" and "don't want to"."
of course it can. It will be perfectly simple for a "medical exemption" tag to be added to any IT system.
As I said earlier, I don't have an answer myself and thank goodness I don't need to have one. While I am firmly against compulsory vaccination, so far as a passport (international travel) goes, it won't be up to England what other countries do and any PASSPORT solution applied here will need to work in with the global system. The principle of required vaccinations for entry to certain countries is already well established.
So far as certification just for England or the UK, I foresee that there still will be a need for a contact tracing system, also there is the issue of unvaccinated people becoming a host group for virus variations which endanger us all.
and also as I have said, I don't think my ambivalent attitude would last more than milliseconds if my late Mum was still here and needed home or residential care.
There is also the 'who pays" issue. Any reasonably secure system will come with a cost. if its just the card given when you get the jab, or similar, you might as well not bother at all...too copyable, too shareable.
of course it can. It will be perfectly simple for a "medical exemption" tag to be added to any IT system.
As I said earlier, I don't have an answer myself and thank goodness I don't need to have one. While I am firmly against compulsory vaccination, so far as a passport (international travel) goes, it won't be up to England what other countries do and any PASSPORT solution applied here will need to work in with the global system. The principle of required vaccinations for entry to certain countries is already well established.
So far as certification just for England or the UK, I foresee that there still will be a need for a contact tracing system, also there is the issue of unvaccinated people becoming a host group for virus variations which endanger us all.
and also as I have said, I don't think my ambivalent attitude would last more than milliseconds if my late Mum was still here and needed home or residential care.
There is also the 'who pays" issue. Any reasonably secure system will come with a cost. if its just the card given when you get the jab, or similar, you might as well not bother at all...too copyable, too shareable.
Yes woof, I realised I meant the opposite and corrected it afterwards.
Would it bother you if you were vaccinated and on a plane with 100 anti-vaxxers?
And would it bother you if you were vaccinated and on a plane with 100 unvaccinated "medically exempt" people?
The answer should be the same, the risk is identical.
Where it comes to travel, countries can and will make some requirements. But working, socialising, going out... would have to be exempt. Bribery or blackmail is never going to be an ethical way of giving healthcare- and actually, particularly so, when the benefit is for "others". You really can't legislate that, imo. Informed consent is such a huge principle to wipe out.
Would it bother you if you were vaccinated and on a plane with 100 anti-vaxxers?
And would it bother you if you were vaccinated and on a plane with 100 unvaccinated "medically exempt" people?
The answer should be the same, the risk is identical.
Where it comes to travel, countries can and will make some requirements. But working, socialising, going out... would have to be exempt. Bribery or blackmail is never going to be an ethical way of giving healthcare- and actually, particularly so, when the benefit is for "others". You really can't legislate that, imo. Informed consent is such a huge principle to wipe out.
My view on "libertarian" versus "authoritarian" is that where the PM is concerned he got it right at the start, because if you remember, back then, the medical advisers were saying that mass events like eg Cheltenham races were low risk.
In the middle, he probably got it a bit wrong, with the "eat out to help out" thing, although I am loth to criticise too much because at the time, without the benefit of hindsight which is such a wonderful thing, most people including myself said it was great.
My worry now is that we are going to be slow to roll back the draconian legislation that has come into being during the crisis. I'm not talking about the extension of emergency powers, as long as they remain on the statute in case of use only, and are consigned to history asap after.
But the idea of a system to discriminate between vaccinated and non-vaccinated people worries me, or it would do if I thought we were competent enough to institute such a system.
They should outsource it: then it'll never happen :-)
In the middle, he probably got it a bit wrong, with the "eat out to help out" thing, although I am loth to criticise too much because at the time, without the benefit of hindsight which is such a wonderful thing, most people including myself said it was great.
My worry now is that we are going to be slow to roll back the draconian legislation that has come into being during the crisis. I'm not talking about the extension of emergency powers, as long as they remain on the statute in case of use only, and are consigned to history asap after.
But the idea of a system to discriminate between vaccinated and non-vaccinated people worries me, or it would do if I thought we were competent enough to institute such a system.
They should outsource it: then it'll never happen :-)
I agree with your last part, ich. But none of the rest :-). We knew and chose to allow it into the UK, they were far too slow and soft at the beginning. Then they randomly lifted different restrictions, and pretty much everyone I know, ignored that, as the risk was obviously still there. It should have been short and harsh at the start, instead of waiting until it really took hold.
My point is that, if Boris does nothing, the default state is that (for example) landlords will be able to exclude people coming into their pubs who haven't been vaccinated. Assuming, that is, those landlords can find a way of verifying that those customers have been vaccinated (big assumption).
Boris would have to legislate if he didn't want landlords and other businesses to discriminate on the grounds of vaccination.
Boris would have to legislate if he didn't want landlords and other businesses to discriminate on the grounds of vaccination.
pixie374 "Yes woof, I realised I meant the opposite and corrected it afterwards.
Would it bother you if you were vaccinated and on a plane with 100 anti-vaxxers?
And would it bother you if you were vaccinated and on a plane with 100 unvaccinated "medically exempt" people?
The answer should be the same, the risk is identical.
Where it comes to travel, countries can and will make some requirements. But working, socialising, going out... would have to be exempt. Bribery or blackmail is never going to be an ethical way of giving healthcare- and actually, particularly so, when the benefit is for "others". You really can't legislate that, imo. Informed consent is such a huge principle to wipe out."
You are missing a point here. I hesitate to use a much misused phrase but that phrase is "herd immunity" The number of people who genuinely cannot have any individual kind of vaccine for genuine medical reasons is vanishingly small. next in size of group (I would guess) are anti vaxxers and I bet the largest group are people overall are the people who just don't get a vaccine for whatever reason but are not anti vax or anti covid vax. Its that third group who can most easily make a difference in either direction. Persuaded to get a vaccine, they will make themselves and the people who they associate with safer, especially including those folk who medically can't have the vaccine. They will also cease to be hosts for variations which are a serious risk.
I get that consent is a vital principle and I wouldn't want to see compulsory vaccination either BUT choices have consequences and that potentially includes employment and social activities.
Would it bother you if you were vaccinated and on a plane with 100 anti-vaxxers?
And would it bother you if you were vaccinated and on a plane with 100 unvaccinated "medically exempt" people?
The answer should be the same, the risk is identical.
Where it comes to travel, countries can and will make some requirements. But working, socialising, going out... would have to be exempt. Bribery or blackmail is never going to be an ethical way of giving healthcare- and actually, particularly so, when the benefit is for "others". You really can't legislate that, imo. Informed consent is such a huge principle to wipe out."
You are missing a point here. I hesitate to use a much misused phrase but that phrase is "herd immunity" The number of people who genuinely cannot have any individual kind of vaccine for genuine medical reasons is vanishingly small. next in size of group (I would guess) are anti vaxxers and I bet the largest group are people overall are the people who just don't get a vaccine for whatever reason but are not anti vax or anti covid vax. Its that third group who can most easily make a difference in either direction. Persuaded to get a vaccine, they will make themselves and the people who they associate with safer, especially including those folk who medically can't have the vaccine. They will also cease to be hosts for variations which are a serious risk.
I get that consent is a vital principle and I wouldn't want to see compulsory vaccination either BUT choices have consequences and that potentially includes employment and social activities.
Yes, fair enough. But there really won't be a difference in sitting with two unvaccinated people in a pub, as "why". This probably should be to ttt, really.
I also don't think it should be compulsory (which includes the possibility of losing your job)- it's a huge responsibility for an employer to take responsibility for personal healthcare and persuade people into it. This is so much more far-reaching than it sounds on the surface.
I also don't think it should be compulsory (which includes the possibility of losing your job)- it's a huge responsibility for an employer to take responsibility for personal healthcare and persuade people into it. This is so much more far-reaching than it sounds on the surface.
pixie there already are jobs that require certain vaccinations in order to take the job. NHS jobs and certain jobs in the travel industry spring to mind, also the merchant navy and oil rigs, also maybe the armed services although I am not sure. Its not a new thing. Why should this be any different?
And you are still not getting my point that the LIKLIHOOD of sitting next to someone who medically cannot have the vaccine in a public place is much much less than the liklihood of sitting next to someone who could have the vaccine and chose not to. The odd person here or there who cannot be vaccinated is much much less of a risk than the many many who have been offered a vaccine, could safely have it and choose not to.
And you are still not getting my point that the LIKLIHOOD of sitting next to someone who medically cannot have the vaccine in a public place is much much less than the liklihood of sitting next to someone who could have the vaccine and chose not to. The odd person here or there who cannot be vaccinated is much much less of a risk than the many many who have been offered a vaccine, could safely have it and choose not to.
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