How Can Labour Recover?

[naomi24]

I’ve just listened to a Labour spokeswoman (no idea who she was) saying that the way for Labour to recover is to return to the hard left. What is it they don’t understand?

If you were making decisions for Labour what changes would you implement to return them to a modicum of popularity?

[Untitled]

and I think it is questionable to call a country "free" if it is in a situation where its people have no power!

[davebro]

If there is an "ideal" way to run the country and the major parties' programs tend towards that ideal to such an extent that they are virtually the same - is that living in a one-party state?

[Untitled]

Yes... in fact that is how one-party states tend to present themselves: "nobody disagrees because our way is the right way."

[andy-hughes]

Corbyn and Corbyn still clung to the 'dignity of the working man's idea that last had relevance sixty years ago.

Today's working man is not dignified, he is aspirational, that's why he voted, and will continue to vote Conservative.

[Zacs-Master]

‘ I think it is questionable to call a country "free" if it is in a situation where its people have no power!’

You’re just being silly now. But that’s fairly standard oh here when someone is shown to be in the wrong. Have some dignity and stop flogging a dead horse.

[Untitled]

I haven't "been shown" to be wrong... you've just blustered and insisted I am without actually justifying it.

If there's no difference between the two parties, then our votes make no meaningful difference either way... if our votes make no difference then we can't really call that democratic can we, because the people have no power.

[douglas9401]

All they have to do is get the publishers of the tabloids onside again then stay disciplined, on-message and not call mushy peas guacamole.

[aelmpvw]

having a leader that doesn't get chucked out of a pub might help

[Untitled]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy?wprov=sfti1

"Guided democracy, also called managed democracy, is a formally democratic government that functions as a de facto autocracy. Such governments are legitimized by elections that are free and fair, but do not change the state's policies, motives, and goals.

...

It is today widely employed in Russia, where it was introduced into common practice by Kremlin theorists, in particular Gleb Pavlovsky."

That's the system you are defending Zacs... and that is what the UK would be if the opposition did not actually stand for something other than the government.

[naomi24]

Untitled, //…the people have no power…//

I don’t understand what you mean. We have a vote and we elect the people we want to represent us. Who do you want to have power? What people and how many of them?

[Untitled]

Read the thread naomi...

[naomi24]

I have read it.

[Untitled]

Read it again...

[Untitled]

Someone asked me why I thought it would be undemocratic if the opposition were to adopt the same ideas as the government... Zacs also disagrees with me, and it went from there...

[ToraToraTora]

untitled: "If there's no difference between the two parties, then our votes make no meaningful difference either way... if our votes make no difference then we can't really call that democratic can we, because the people have no power." - you do not have to have two diametrically opposed parties to have a choice. As Noo Laybore demonstrated in 1997 when they gave us alternative Tories. The country is done with hard left type policies, now they want choices that are much more subtle. Often simply a change is desired as in 1997.

[Khandro]

Perhaps they should ask the former 'Red Wallers' what they really want - it might be a surprise: stop all illegal immigration, no more mosques there's more than enough, no child support after 2 children, you know, things like that.

[Zacs-Master]

He’s no idea, Naomi. He’s painted himself into a corner and is now trying to save face by obfuscation. Standard AB modus.

[Zacs-Master]

By the way, I’m not defending any system and if I were it wouldn’t be a pseudo Marxist one.

[Paigntonian]

In my lifetime Labour has been written-off. The Conservatives have been written-off. The SDP/Liberal Alliance was forecast to form a government. Brexit won. My point is, as Harold Wilson said, a week is a long time in politics.

[Untitled]

I don't personally agree that new labour were "tory lite", tora. I think they did offer a meaningful alternative to the tories - just not in the way "old labour" used to... their innovation was realising that there was more to disagree with the tories on than whether or not the gas board should be private.