News1 min ago
Women Need To Be Streetwise About The Powers Of Arrest And Learn Legal Process....apparently.
Is the criticism currently being levelled at Commissioner Philip Allott justified, or is he simply speaking common sense?
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I think few people, if confronted by a policeman would be sure of their legal footing. Seems like an example of victim-blaming.
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I think few people, if confronted by a policeman would be sure of their legal footing. Seems like an example of victim-blaming.
Answers
danny - // Women need to be streetwise to a certain extent ... // And that statement simply adds to my argument. Why do women have to be 'streetwise to a certain extent', when men clearly do not? And is that acceptable? My point is that they should no more have to be streetwise' than any men, and that society thinks it's OK to confirm that they should, is what is wrong...
19:03 Sat 02nd Oct 2021
Prudie
I read an article earlier today on that point. It's not that male babies need to be taught how not to be murderers and rapists, it's how we as a society instil values in children.
From Miranda Hyde (excellent piece):
[The murder of Sarah Everard is] a continuum of male harassment and the fear of it that women experience every day of their lives. Women are constantly, constantly performing risk assessment. Dare I pass down this street at this time? Is this the routine sleazy comment that turns into something worse? Is he going to keep walking or will he turn around? To make a troubled peace with it, we have to euphemise this lifestyle as “being sensible” or “taking care”, but it’s really just a statistically justified fear as part of daily life. Every woman has experienced various things along that continuum.
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I read an article earlier today on that point. It's not that male babies need to be taught how not to be murderers and rapists, it's how we as a society instil values in children.
From Miranda Hyde (excellent piece):
[The murder of Sarah Everard is] a continuum of male harassment and the fear of it that women experience every day of their lives. Women are constantly, constantly performing risk assessment. Dare I pass down this street at this time? Is this the routine sleazy comment that turns into something worse? Is he going to keep walking or will he turn around? To make a troubled peace with it, we have to euphemise this lifestyle as “being sensible” or “taking care”, but it’s really just a statistically justified fear as part of daily life. Every woman has experienced various things along that continuum.
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Doubt it naomi24.
…because I don’t. I await AH’s response.
I genuinely didn’t mean to swerve if that’s how you read my response. I agree with AH which is why I awarded him BA.
I’ve reread his post and agree with it. If I’ve somehow given the impression I don’t, it would be illuminating to see how.
But I don’t think I have.
…because I don’t. I await AH’s response.
I genuinely didn’t mean to swerve if that’s how you read my response. I agree with AH which is why I awarded him BA.
I’ve reread his post and agree with it. If I’ve somehow given the impression I don’t, it would be illuminating to see how.
But I don’t think I have.
webbo3
To clarify - by 'streetwise' I'm referring to all the actions that women have to take to ensure their safety and security - this encompasses (but isn't restricted to) knowing where to walk at night.
It also covers having to assess the men they might be with at the end of the night; being vigilant about the possibility of having their drink spiked; being aware the possible danger of crashing out drunk at party; being aware that the clothes you wear on a night out might be construed as sexually provocative; having to choose an alternate route to the tube station so as not to face walking past the building site where men shout "Show us yer tits" (as it's only banter)...
Have you as a man ever known the risk of being sexually assaulted, raped, sexually harassed or just plain annoyed in any of those situations?
Yes men know that they can be the victims of violent men, but so can women - and not only that, for women who *do* get murdered 61% are murdered by their partner.
Something drastic and fundamental needs to be done to address this.
To clarify - by 'streetwise' I'm referring to all the actions that women have to take to ensure their safety and security - this encompasses (but isn't restricted to) knowing where to walk at night.
It also covers having to assess the men they might be with at the end of the night; being vigilant about the possibility of having their drink spiked; being aware the possible danger of crashing out drunk at party; being aware that the clothes you wear on a night out might be construed as sexually provocative; having to choose an alternate route to the tube station so as not to face walking past the building site where men shout "Show us yer tits" (as it's only banter)...
Have you as a man ever known the risk of being sexually assaulted, raped, sexually harassed or just plain annoyed in any of those situations?
Yes men know that they can be the victims of violent men, but so can women - and not only that, for women who *do* get murdered 61% are murdered by their partner.
Something drastic and fundamental needs to be done to address this.
naomi24
AH wrote:
//Why do women have to be 'streetwise to a certain extent', when men clearly do not? And is that acceptable? My point is that they should no more have to be streetwise' than any men//
I think (and again I turn to AH for clarification) he was saying that the narrative at the moment is "Women - you have a duty to be streetwise", but the same message is not deployed when men are attacked.
When we see stories of men attacked on the street, the first reaction isn't "Men - you need to be streetwise".
It's not that AH is saying that men don't have to be streetwise, it's just society doesn't make that assumption. You don't see victim-blaming in the press when the victim is a man.
That's what I get from that statement - the unfairness with how we treat victims based on their gender.
That's why I gave the BA.
AH wrote:
//Why do women have to be 'streetwise to a certain extent', when men clearly do not? And is that acceptable? My point is that they should no more have to be streetwise' than any men//
I think (and again I turn to AH for clarification) he was saying that the narrative at the moment is "Women - you have a duty to be streetwise", but the same message is not deployed when men are attacked.
When we see stories of men attacked on the street, the first reaction isn't "Men - you need to be streetwise".
It's not that AH is saying that men don't have to be streetwise, it's just society doesn't make that assumption. You don't see victim-blaming in the press when the victim is a man.
That's what I get from that statement - the unfairness with how we treat victims based on their gender.
That's why I gave the BA.
Prudie - // Surely if it's the lack of training and discipline as children that causes these rapes and murders it would imply that many babies, mainly male babies, are born as potential rapists and murderers and need this educating out of them. I would hope most of us think that's a ludicrous assumption. //
It is a ludicrous assumption, which is why I have not put it forward as a valid argument.
My point is not that 'all men are beasts' as they saying goes.
My point is that society has arrived at a situation where women are expected to 'be careful' alone at night as a matter of course, and the fact that this situation continues is, in my view, a dreadful indightment of modern society.
My point about education, is that if boys are taught growing up that girls and wormen should be treated with equal respect and courtesy, then the need to be 'streetwise' as it is put, would be removed.
To be clear, I am not for one minute suggesting that anyone, male or female, should not have their wits about them alone at night, for obvious reasons.
Where my point arises is from the OP - remember that - where a Police Commisioner has the utter insensitivity to infer that a woman raped and murdered should have been more aware of the law in terms of her rights on being arrested.
Once again it speaks to the notion that women should 'protect themselves', and that comes from a wider and deeper perception that still lives on - that women out alone at night are 'asking for trouble' in a way that is never ever applied to men in the same situation.
It is a ludicrous assumption, which is why I have not put it forward as a valid argument.
My point is not that 'all men are beasts' as they saying goes.
My point is that society has arrived at a situation where women are expected to 'be careful' alone at night as a matter of course, and the fact that this situation continues is, in my view, a dreadful indightment of modern society.
My point about education, is that if boys are taught growing up that girls and wormen should be treated with equal respect and courtesy, then the need to be 'streetwise' as it is put, would be removed.
To be clear, I am not for one minute suggesting that anyone, male or female, should not have their wits about them alone at night, for obvious reasons.
Where my point arises is from the OP - remember that - where a Police Commisioner has the utter insensitivity to infer that a woman raped and murdered should have been more aware of the law in terms of her rights on being arrested.
Once again it speaks to the notion that women should 'protect themselves', and that comes from a wider and deeper perception that still lives on - that women out alone at night are 'asking for trouble' in a way that is never ever applied to men in the same situation.
roy - // You are often every bit as rude as me...don't kid yourself. //
I am pleased to see you acknowledge your faults.
But rude as I may be construed to be, or not, I have never, in twenty-one years and counting on this site, ever dismissed any post about anything with a sniffy one-word rude answer.
I am pleased to see you acknowledge your faults.
But rude as I may be construed to be, or not, I have never, in twenty-one years and counting on this site, ever dismissed any post about anything with a sniffy one-word rude answer.
sp - //
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Question Author
naomi24
AH wrote:
//Why do women have to be 'streetwise to a certain extent', when men clearly do not? And is that acceptable? My point is that they should no more have to be streetwise' than any men//
I think (and again I turn to AH for clarification) he was saying that the narrative at the moment is "Women - you have a duty to be streetwise", but the same message is not deployed when men are attacked.
When we see stories of men attacked on the street, the first reaction isn't "Men - you need to be streetwise".
It's not that AH is saying that men don't have to be streetwise, it's just society doesn't make that assumption. You don't see victim-blaming in the press when the victim is a man.
That's what I get from that statement - the unfairness with how we treat victims based on their gender.
That's why I gave the BA. //
Thank you - that is exactly my point.
As a father of three daughters, I have had to educate my children far more keenly and more intently about being safe at night that I would have had to do with a son.
That's not to say I would not have cautioned my son, or sons, to be aware when out at night alone, but because I am aware of the perception of society, that its women who bear responsibility for their safety, I was obliged to ensure that mt girls were as safe as possible.
My point about this OP - remember that - is the fact tha a Police Commissioner can seriously suggest that a raped and murdered victim was at least partially complicit in her fate because she failed to aquaint herelf sufficiently with her rights regarding the notion of resisiting arrest.
If find that kind of thinking not only breathtaking in its utter insensitivity, but entirely indicitive of the way society views women who are victims of violent assaults alone late at night - it is in some way their own fault.
Avatar Image sp1814
Question Author
naomi24
AH wrote:
//Why do women have to be 'streetwise to a certain extent', when men clearly do not? And is that acceptable? My point is that they should no more have to be streetwise' than any men//
I think (and again I turn to AH for clarification) he was saying that the narrative at the moment is "Women - you have a duty to be streetwise", but the same message is not deployed when men are attacked.
When we see stories of men attacked on the street, the first reaction isn't "Men - you need to be streetwise".
It's not that AH is saying that men don't have to be streetwise, it's just society doesn't make that assumption. You don't see victim-blaming in the press when the victim is a man.
That's what I get from that statement - the unfairness with how we treat victims based on their gender.
That's why I gave the BA. //
Thank you - that is exactly my point.
As a father of three daughters, I have had to educate my children far more keenly and more intently about being safe at night that I would have had to do with a son.
That's not to say I would not have cautioned my son, or sons, to be aware when out at night alone, but because I am aware of the perception of society, that its women who bear responsibility for their safety, I was obliged to ensure that mt girls were as safe as possible.
My point about this OP - remember that - is the fact tha a Police Commissioner can seriously suggest that a raped and murdered victim was at least partially complicit in her fate because she failed to aquaint herelf sufficiently with her rights regarding the notion of resisiting arrest.
If find that kind of thinking not only breathtaking in its utter insensitivity, but entirely indicitive of the way society views women who are victims of violent assaults alone late at night - it is in some way their own fault.
douglas - // Seems to be more than a whiff of mansplaining in the air. //
I can only speak personally, but if I elaborate on a point, it is because someone has responded in a way that suggests to me that they have not understood what I have said.
I am perfectly happy to assume responsibility for that - that the issue lies with my lack of a well-worded argument, rather than the inability of the respndent to understand what I am saying.
Therefore, any additional posts from me are in the nature of explanation and an attempt to make my position absolutely clear.
'Mansplaning' is not something I deal in.
I can only speak personally, but if I elaborate on a point, it is because someone has responded in a way that suggests to me that they have not understood what I have said.
I am perfectly happy to assume responsibility for that - that the issue lies with my lack of a well-worded argument, rather than the inability of the respndent to understand what I am saying.
Therefore, any additional posts from me are in the nature of explanation and an attempt to make my position absolutely clear.
'Mansplaning' is not something I deal in.
douglas - // Mansplaning would be male carpentry, but, errr, you just did. //
'Mansplaining' - as I understand it - is the patronising approach of a man explaining something to a woman because her perceives her as being too stupid by virtue of her gender, to understand what he is talking about.
I am assuming from your user name that you are male, so the point does not apply - and since I don't do that, it never did.
'Mansplaining' - as I understand it - is the patronising approach of a man explaining something to a woman because her perceives her as being too stupid by virtue of her gender, to understand what he is talking about.
I am assuming from your user name that you are male, so the point does not apply - and since I don't do that, it never did.
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