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Since Naomi will not give me the ****ing key I have decided to follow Jesus and be a Christian just like Theland. I am ashamed of my past history here so I'm going to devote the time I used to spend on ab to reading the Bible. No question really because I no longer care about what people think. I'll get all my answers from God from now on thank you.
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Yes, I admit it. I'm out of my depth on here.
I'm just glad that you lot have been prepared to suffer me for so long.
When it comes to the finer points of philosophical theory, I can't help getting bogged down in the daily grind.
How does the pursuit of knowledge of our reality translate into our everyday lives, which for the great majority of people entails a constant battle to make ends meet, feeding and clothing their kids, dealing with problems of schools, the local community, crime, health, and paying tribute to the constant flow of finacial demands for services, local taxes, transport and school dinners.
Work hard and succeed, and one day have the finacial security to buy the time to pursue this knowledge, but for many hard working women, a few hours respite in the bingo hall or the pub is just about all they can afford in terms of energy, time and money.
It is not an insult when I refer to the ivory tower, just my perception of the reality of those who are in a position to pursue and consider this knowledge, and those who aren't.
I'm just glad that you lot have been prepared to suffer me for so long.
When it comes to the finer points of philosophical theory, I can't help getting bogged down in the daily grind.
How does the pursuit of knowledge of our reality translate into our everyday lives, which for the great majority of people entails a constant battle to make ends meet, feeding and clothing their kids, dealing with problems of schools, the local community, crime, health, and paying tribute to the constant flow of finacial demands for services, local taxes, transport and school dinners.
Work hard and succeed, and one day have the finacial security to buy the time to pursue this knowledge, but for many hard working women, a few hours respite in the bingo hall or the pub is just about all they can afford in terms of energy, time and money.
It is not an insult when I refer to the ivory tower, just my perception of the reality of those who are in a position to pursue and consider this knowledge, and those who aren't.
Mibs, can you expand on this paragraph?
"In a fundamental sense there can be no reason for anything apart from the conditional existence of a being whose very existence depends on its proper use. I encourage you to stick that in you pipe and give it some intense and serious smokage."
Is that to say we cannot, or are forbidden somehow, in even speculating where it all began?
Are we to simply wake up each day and say, "Here I am, this is it, let's move on."
(continued)
"In a fundamental sense there can be no reason for anything apart from the conditional existence of a being whose very existence depends on its proper use. I encourage you to stick that in you pipe and give it some intense and serious smokage."
Is that to say we cannot, or are forbidden somehow, in even speculating where it all began?
Are we to simply wake up each day and say, "Here I am, this is it, let's move on."
(continued)
Nah! I've thought that bit over and it doesn't make sense.
.... conditional existence of a being .......
Conditional on what?
Conditional on the proper use of our existence?
That's a bit convoluted to say the least.
I presume you believe in bootstrap theory, self supporting?
I must look into this more.
.... conditional existence of a being .......
Conditional on what?
Conditional on the proper use of our existence?
That's a bit convoluted to say the least.
I presume you believe in bootstrap theory, self supporting?
I must look into this more.
I've looked into this more .....
More generally, "bootstrapping" refers to any method of reaching higher understanding by building on lower foundations. The name derives from the fictional Baron Munchausen, one of whose many tall tails involved lifting himself off the ground by pulling on the laces of his own boots.
So, the Mibs theory of existence is simply dependent on the fact of our existence but does not seek to explain the origin of our existence.
More in a moment.
More generally, "bootstrapping" refers to any method of reaching higher understanding by building on lower foundations. The name derives from the fictional Baron Munchausen, one of whose many tall tails involved lifting himself off the ground by pulling on the laces of his own boots.
So, the Mibs theory of existence is simply dependent on the fact of our existence but does not seek to explain the origin of our existence.
More in a moment.
Mibs, What exactly is this knowledge that you have acquired, and how do you harness it to bring home the bacon? Unless you are a lecturer of course, that would make sense.
But how can the local widget factory use your knowledge to make more and better widgets?
Will it help to solve the problem of knife crime?
Will it help the N.H.S.?
How about the credit crunch?
The knowledge you espouse, seems to me, to be entirely relative and vacuous, and you must also share with Einstein his assertion that there is no hitching post in the universe.
That is where we part company, as I believe in absolutes, not an all permeating relativism.
However, I am self aware enough to realise that if I'm lucky, I'll rise to the great heights of general assistant in Tesco, and then count my blessings for being able to pay my way a bit easier than at present, and that is a bit disconcerting in the presence of truly great thinkers.
Yeah, I know, I know, I'm probably missing something fundamental here, but I'm just thinking with what I have, not what I might have had.
But how can the local widget factory use your knowledge to make more and better widgets?
Will it help to solve the problem of knife crime?
Will it help the N.H.S.?
How about the credit crunch?
The knowledge you espouse, seems to me, to be entirely relative and vacuous, and you must also share with Einstein his assertion that there is no hitching post in the universe.
That is where we part company, as I believe in absolutes, not an all permeating relativism.
However, I am self aware enough to realise that if I'm lucky, I'll rise to the great heights of general assistant in Tesco, and then count my blessings for being able to pay my way a bit easier than at present, and that is a bit disconcerting in the presence of truly great thinkers.
Yeah, I know, I know, I'm probably missing something fundamental here, but I'm just thinking with what I have, not what I might have had.
Here's another one, (of many), I can't get to grips with.
"The philosophy I inherited through my �upbringing� did not provide an essential framework for me to live by so not just a major overhaul but a complete rebuilding from the foundation up was required."
I what way was the philosophy you inherited through your upbringing lacking?
After all, the statement infers some beliefs, standards, codes or whatever, that were held by your parents.
So, did your parents, in your opinion, lack a qualitative dimension to their lives that is now a prominent feature of your life now?
Whatever their beliefs were, they surely are not guilty of not providing you with the necessary education, the success of which is so prominent in your writings?
I simply don't understand.
"The philosophy I inherited through my �upbringing� did not provide an essential framework for me to live by so not just a major overhaul but a complete rebuilding from the foundation up was required."
I what way was the philosophy you inherited through your upbringing lacking?
After all, the statement infers some beliefs, standards, codes or whatever, that were held by your parents.
So, did your parents, in your opinion, lack a qualitative dimension to their lives that is now a prominent feature of your life now?
Whatever their beliefs were, they surely are not guilty of not providing you with the necessary education, the success of which is so prominent in your writings?
I simply don't understand.
Well I'm off to bed now, hopefully, to dream of wearing a smart new Tesco uniform and a false grin, to lure the potential customers into buying musical toilet brushes, designer toe nail clippers, and tons and tons of coloured plastic clothes pegs, whilst earning big fat bonuses for being a team player and, "driving the business forward ......... "
And then I'm looking foward to Naomis' critique of the Mibs report.
And China? Well I just hope she has second thoughts about that crazy tattoo idea. History I hope.
Goodnight.
And then I'm looking foward to Naomis' critique of the Mibs report.
And China? Well I just hope she has second thoughts about that crazy tattoo idea. History I hope.
Goodnight.
Mibs, can you expand on this paragraph?
"In a fundamental sense there can be no reason for anything apart from the conditional existence of a being whose very existence depends on its proper use. I encourage you to stick that in you pipe and give it some intense and serious smokage."
First allow me to repair my spelling error. Should have been,� . . . stick that in your pipe . . . �. There now, that should clear up the confusion!
�Is that to say we cannot, or are forbidden somehow, in even speculating where it all began?�
Speculation is not only acceptable but is an essential component of the reasoning process. But reasoning does not stop there. We must first validate our suspicions before we accept them as fact.
Are we to simply wake up each day and say, "Here I am, this is it, let's move on."
When I wake up each day I am more likely to ask, �Where am I? Who is that? Ain�t I supposed to be somewhere right now?� As funny as this may sound it shares some correspondence with the truth. Where we have been and where we can go are all in relation to who, what, and where we are now and until we have established what is we are destined to travel blindly in whatever direction we happen to be going . . . Which brings us back to the original question:
"In a fundamental sense there can be no reason for anything apart from the conditional existence of a being whose very existence depends on its proper use. I encourage you to stick that in you pipe and give it some intense and serious smokage."
First allow me to repair my spelling error. Should have been,� . . . stick that in your pipe . . . �. There now, that should clear up the confusion!
�Is that to say we cannot, or are forbidden somehow, in even speculating where it all began?�
Speculation is not only acceptable but is an essential component of the reasoning process. But reasoning does not stop there. We must first validate our suspicions before we accept them as fact.
Are we to simply wake up each day and say, "Here I am, this is it, let's move on."
When I wake up each day I am more likely to ask, �Where am I? Who is that? Ain�t I supposed to be somewhere right now?� As funny as this may sound it shares some correspondence with the truth. Where we have been and where we can go are all in relation to who, what, and where we are now and until we have established what is we are destined to travel blindly in whatever direction we happen to be going . . . Which brings us back to the original question:
"In a fundamental sense there can be no reason for anything apart from the conditional existence of a being whose very existence depends on its proper use.�
It is the fact that life is conditional (the alternative should be quite obvious but just in case it has slipped your mind, it is death) and that as humans our ability to reason is the means by which we sustain and promote our lives, that as a species reason and life share a mutually interdependent and mutually beneficial relationship. Without both, neither could or would exist, that is to say, reason and humanity are not simply related but are inseparable and indivisible corollaries. This is not to say that our species is necessarily the only species in the universe that lives by virtue of the ability to reason. I do suspect however if and when we encounter such a species we should hope that they are much better at it than we are.
The point of all this is that a universe devoid of a being with an ability to reason or the potential for such a being to come into being would have no reason to exist. When struggling to find the reason for the existence of the universe take a long hard look in a mirror and think! You are not the only reason for the existence of anything but reason to the extent you are able to practice it and have benefited from it has delivered you from out of the cave and liberated you from a constant need to defend yourself from the attacks of savages and other wild beasts. The alternative is to ripe off your clothes, run naked through the woods and when you have tired of that lie down to rest and become a bear�s next meal.
It is the fact that life is conditional (the alternative should be quite obvious but just in case it has slipped your mind, it is death) and that as humans our ability to reason is the means by which we sustain and promote our lives, that as a species reason and life share a mutually interdependent and mutually beneficial relationship. Without both, neither could or would exist, that is to say, reason and humanity are not simply related but are inseparable and indivisible corollaries. This is not to say that our species is necessarily the only species in the universe that lives by virtue of the ability to reason. I do suspect however if and when we encounter such a species we should hope that they are much better at it than we are.
The point of all this is that a universe devoid of a being with an ability to reason or the potential for such a being to come into being would have no reason to exist. When struggling to find the reason for the existence of the universe take a long hard look in a mirror and think! You are not the only reason for the existence of anything but reason to the extent you are able to practice it and have benefited from it has delivered you from out of the cave and liberated you from a constant need to defend yourself from the attacks of savages and other wild beasts. The alternative is to ripe off your clothes, run naked through the woods and when you have tired of that lie down to rest and become a bear�s next meal.
Mibs, I haven't read your reply to Theland, which I've just noticed as I'm about to post this, so I'll look at that later. This is in reply to your message to me.
Since I know absolutely nothing about you, my question 'Do you enjoy being an enigma", was flippantly posed as the result of momentarily musing - one of those rare moments when we allow our mind free rein to wander where it will. Who is he? What's his name? How old is he? What does he look like? What does he sound like? Where does he live? What does he do? Unimportant and unnecessary questions, no doubt, and not questions I would presume to ask, or expect to receive answers to, but thoughts nevertheless, that as inquisitive human beings, surely must cross the minds of each and every one of us when thinking about someone we talk to regularly, but have never met?
You rightly say that many of the problems associated with human relationships result from a lack of mutual understanding, but in understanding ourselves, do we not often become even further detached from those who understand neither us, nor themselves, and make no effort to do so? One of my objectives also, is mutual understanding, but there are many in this world to whom questions such as this never arise, and, hence, will never be considered. They don't seek to understand themselves, or anyone else, and in my experience merely mentally, and erroneously, endow those around them with the qualities (or otherwise) that they themselves possess, and which they doggedly perceive as 'the norm'. Therefore, to seek, or to attempt to achieve mutual understanding in such circumstances is a futile exercise. Bridges capable of spanning such vast chasms can never be constructed, and this I accept.
.....continued
Since I know absolutely nothing about you, my question 'Do you enjoy being an enigma", was flippantly posed as the result of momentarily musing - one of those rare moments when we allow our mind free rein to wander where it will. Who is he? What's his name? How old is he? What does he look like? What does he sound like? Where does he live? What does he do? Unimportant and unnecessary questions, no doubt, and not questions I would presume to ask, or expect to receive answers to, but thoughts nevertheless, that as inquisitive human beings, surely must cross the minds of each and every one of us when thinking about someone we talk to regularly, but have never met?
You rightly say that many of the problems associated with human relationships result from a lack of mutual understanding, but in understanding ourselves, do we not often become even further detached from those who understand neither us, nor themselves, and make no effort to do so? One of my objectives also, is mutual understanding, but there are many in this world to whom questions such as this never arise, and, hence, will never be considered. They don't seek to understand themselves, or anyone else, and in my experience merely mentally, and erroneously, endow those around them with the qualities (or otherwise) that they themselves possess, and which they doggedly perceive as 'the norm'. Therefore, to seek, or to attempt to achieve mutual understanding in such circumstances is a futile exercise. Bridges capable of spanning such vast chasms can never be constructed, and this I accept.
.....continued
continued.....
Upbringing is a fundamental component in determining whom we become in our adult lives, and, although our thoughts and philosophies may subsequently waiver considerably from our early lessons, those lessons usually dictate the basis upon which the moral and ethical codes we carry with us throughout our lives are established. Therefore, the reasons for your self-imposed departure from the tenets of your upbringing, and the methods by which you've distanced yourself so utterly and completely from that to enable you to rebuild up from the foundation, fascinate me. For one reason or another, many of us distance ourselves from elements of our childhood, but you appear to have worked consistently, and with a resolute passion, to remove every element of it from your life. May I ask why - and more intriguingly, how?
I too seek truth - but primarily my goals lie in the mysteries of the universe - and I seek the answers to those questions with a far greater fervour than I seek the often lost cause of discovering a cognitive parallel and a mutual understanding with other human beings. That, I feel, has become my raison d'�tre, and my own personal crusade - but I have come to realise that the truth I seek can never be sourced from, or discovered in, the minds of those who, although claiming to champion 'reason' or 'rationality', in fact abandon all traces of both not only by failing to conduct personal research, but as you say, by resorting to force or intimidation.
....continued
Upbringing is a fundamental component in determining whom we become in our adult lives, and, although our thoughts and philosophies may subsequently waiver considerably from our early lessons, those lessons usually dictate the basis upon which the moral and ethical codes we carry with us throughout our lives are established. Therefore, the reasons for your self-imposed departure from the tenets of your upbringing, and the methods by which you've distanced yourself so utterly and completely from that to enable you to rebuild up from the foundation, fascinate me. For one reason or another, many of us distance ourselves from elements of our childhood, but you appear to have worked consistently, and with a resolute passion, to remove every element of it from your life. May I ask why - and more intriguingly, how?
I too seek truth - but primarily my goals lie in the mysteries of the universe - and I seek the answers to those questions with a far greater fervour than I seek the often lost cause of discovering a cognitive parallel and a mutual understanding with other human beings. That, I feel, has become my raison d'�tre, and my own personal crusade - but I have come to realise that the truth I seek can never be sourced from, or discovered in, the minds of those who, although claiming to champion 'reason' or 'rationality', in fact abandon all traces of both not only by failing to conduct personal research, but as you say, by resorting to force or intimidation.
....continued
continued....
I hope you realise your dream and ambition of reaping the benefits of living among, and with, other rational, informed, life loving and mind respecting human beings, but in considering my experience of the human race, I fear I remain unconvinced that the results of your pursuit will ever bear fruit enough to sustain you. You may find the occasional juicy, ripening berry thriving on a green and fertile branch, but the overwhelming and continuing influx of scavenging crows will always devour the rest. Sceptical, perhaps, but nevertheless, this is my experience of life and of the human race, and this is my belief.
Upon reading your incredibly complimentary words, my first thought was 'rubncweus?, but I thank you very much indeed. I blush as we speak! I'm quite astonished to know that I have, on occasion, presented a challenge to you, and that I find very rewarding indeed. Thank you. As for Occam's Razor, this principle has been presented to me very many times by the 'rational' contributors to AB, no doubt in the hope of encouraging me to think differently - but some aren't quite as thoughtful or as rational as they like to think they are, and apply the principle only to that which suits their purpose, without ever considering that it will often support an alternative argument.
Mibs, please be assured that you could never over-indulge the privilege of exploiting my attention. Exploitation it is not, and the privilege is all mine. It is a great pleasure to converse with you, and I thank you for taking the time, and for making the effort, to share your thoughts with me.
Crop circles?! My wonky foot?! Drat! I am discovered!!
I hope you realise your dream and ambition of reaping the benefits of living among, and with, other rational, informed, life loving and mind respecting human beings, but in considering my experience of the human race, I fear I remain unconvinced that the results of your pursuit will ever bear fruit enough to sustain you. You may find the occasional juicy, ripening berry thriving on a green and fertile branch, but the overwhelming and continuing influx of scavenging crows will always devour the rest. Sceptical, perhaps, but nevertheless, this is my experience of life and of the human race, and this is my belief.
Upon reading your incredibly complimentary words, my first thought was 'rubncweus?, but I thank you very much indeed. I blush as we speak! I'm quite astonished to know that I have, on occasion, presented a challenge to you, and that I find very rewarding indeed. Thank you. As for Occam's Razor, this principle has been presented to me very many times by the 'rational' contributors to AB, no doubt in the hope of encouraging me to think differently - but some aren't quite as thoughtful or as rational as they like to think they are, and apply the principle only to that which suits their purpose, without ever considering that it will often support an alternative argument.
Mibs, please be assured that you could never over-indulge the privilege of exploiting my attention. Exploitation it is not, and the privilege is all mine. It is a great pleasure to converse with you, and I thank you for taking the time, and for making the effort, to share your thoughts with me.
Crop circles?! My wonky foot?! Drat! I am discovered!!
One for China
Theland, I'll jump on the 'beginnings of the universe' bandwagon shortly - if you don't mind. Time to make a cup of tea now, methinks. Anyone want one?
Theland, I'll jump on the 'beginnings of the universe' bandwagon shortly - if you don't mind. Time to make a cup of tea now, methinks. Anyone want one?
China, what link of Luna�s are you talking about? I can�t see any link - but maybe I�m missing something as usual. Well done with the cigarettes, anyway. Do you feel better or not? Bet your purse is a bit heavier!
Oh, poor Valentine! The wrath of China is upon her! Quite scary when you think of all those terracotta warriors she has in tow!
Theland, do you honestly not read books? Oh, reading could be so good for you. Nothing better for taking you away from real life for a while.
Let us know about the Tesco job, won�t you? I�m excited! And a new window? Just the thing to view the world from a different perspective.
Mibs, I take it that I�m the �Trolloppe�(sic) . Men never are. But never mind - at least you kept me warm and entertained.
Oh, poor Valentine! The wrath of China is upon her! Quite scary when you think of all those terracotta warriors she has in tow!
Theland, do you honestly not read books? Oh, reading could be so good for you. Nothing better for taking you away from real life for a while.
Let us know about the Tesco job, won�t you? I�m excited! And a new window? Just the thing to view the world from a different perspective.
Mibs, I take it that I�m the �Trolloppe�(sic) . Men never are. But never mind - at least you kept me warm and entertained.
Me too Theland. Books are pretty much my only consolation at times... To the point where even at the dentists I continously read the 'how to brush teeth' sign over and over again in order to detract from everything else is going on. It's an often lamented fact in my family that I would rather read than talking to them. (However replying to the lamentation with well have you ever tried listening to yourself?! is apparently not the correct response).
Valentine is an insipid little freak who is more like my name than I am and frankly much easier to shatter than my name. I was actually willing her step mother on by the end of it. Mind you, by the end of it I was also willing the count dead as well. In fact, as far as I can tell the only character I really liked was Eugiene, she had a bit of spark at least. No wonder Austen ridiculed the whole bl00dy genre... And to think, I've still to plough through Radcliffe which is the task for the next time I go to the library... Speaking of which... What sort of library does not have copies of the divine comedy, paradise lost or inferno?! Now admittedly I sound like a jumped up little mare myself for asking but the glaring fact that I haven't read them was the reason I joined the damn library in the first place!
Right, I'm going backwards now to try and digest all the long speeches on here and make sense of them.
Valentine is an insipid little freak who is more like my name than I am and frankly much easier to shatter than my name. I was actually willing her step mother on by the end of it. Mind you, by the end of it I was also willing the count dead as well. In fact, as far as I can tell the only character I really liked was Eugiene, she had a bit of spark at least. No wonder Austen ridiculed the whole bl00dy genre... And to think, I've still to plough through Radcliffe which is the task for the next time I go to the library... Speaking of which... What sort of library does not have copies of the divine comedy, paradise lost or inferno?! Now admittedly I sound like a jumped up little mare myself for asking but the glaring fact that I haven't read them was the reason I joined the damn library in the first place!
Right, I'm going backwards now to try and digest all the long speeches on here and make sense of them.
Right - since you lot have managed to do about five different topics over the last day or two I'll do my best to find two pennys worth to give you.
Aliens.
To quote from a much underused source... 'Sometimes I think the surest sign of intelligent life existing is that it hasn't tried to contact us yet' (well something like that).
My belief in life outside this universe extends to wiggly worm type creatures or single celled organisms. They'd have to be radically different to us to survive otherwise. It was thought that the sun was the reason there was life on this planet which has been proved wrong I think as at the bottom of the ocean where sunlight can't penetrate there are ecosystems that have evolved. So I believe if there is life out there, it would be rather like those ecosystems.
Aliens.
To quote from a much underused source... 'Sometimes I think the surest sign of intelligent life existing is that it hasn't tried to contact us yet' (well something like that).
My belief in life outside this universe extends to wiggly worm type creatures or single celled organisms. They'd have to be radically different to us to survive otherwise. It was thought that the sun was the reason there was life on this planet which has been proved wrong I think as at the bottom of the ocean where sunlight can't penetrate there are ecosystems that have evolved. So I believe if there is life out there, it would be rather like those ecosystems.
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