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May Says It Won't Be A Better Deal
if she goes, who would take her place at this late stage, and if the deal doesn't get through Parliament what happens next.
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As pretty and amusing as it is, your allegory is incongruous, Karl. Most of the people who voted to leave the “bowls club” have no wish to retain any of its benefits or use any of its facilities. The reason the current mess has arisen is because our illustrious leaders who have been “negotiati
15:31 Sun 18th Nov 2018
Considering that Stephen Barclay, the Brexit Secretary, is supposed to be in favour of Brexit, his column in the Sunday Express is quite odd.
He says,
The prime Minister has shown great fortitude in reaching a deal with Brussels that sets us on the path to a smooth exit in March 2019 next year WHILST HONOURING THE RESULT OF THE REFERENDUM IN FULL.
He says,
The prime Minister has shown great fortitude in reaching a deal with Brussels that sets us on the path to a smooth exit in March 2019 next year WHILST HONOURING THE RESULT OF THE REFERENDUM IN FULL.
There was an interesting snippet I heard in the past few hours: People were hanging around a place in the USA where votes were being recounted due to the very small margin according to the first count.
One of these people was asked for her view. She said that there was a clear attempt to subvert democracy. She was asked how she would see it if the result was that the other party had won - she said that would prove to her that the count was rigged. Then she was asked how she would react if the count resulted in her preferred candidate winning. She said that would prove the count was right.
Forget which side she belongs to (your guess might be correct), many/most would dismiss this as typically unsophisticated/ignorant for the USA. But is it limited to there ? Is it only in the USA that people allow themselves to suggest that they are entitled to getting what they want, no matter what, just because they want it and that what is needed is someone to insist strongly enough ? Is failure to have one's way simply the fault of those among us who do not support the demands ? Is it impossible that the demands were from the outset unlikely to succeed ?
One of these people was asked for her view. She said that there was a clear attempt to subvert democracy. She was asked how she would see it if the result was that the other party had won - she said that would prove to her that the count was rigged. Then she was asked how she would react if the count resulted in her preferred candidate winning. She said that would prove the count was right.
Forget which side she belongs to (your guess might be correct), many/most would dismiss this as typically unsophisticated/ignorant for the USA. But is it limited to there ? Is it only in the USA that people allow themselves to suggest that they are entitled to getting what they want, no matter what, just because they want it and that what is needed is someone to insist strongly enough ? Is failure to have one's way simply the fault of those among us who do not support the demands ? Is it impossible that the demands were from the outset unlikely to succeed ?
TTT@ 21.28:
so it was always impossible to leave the EU
Yes. Impossible given the different factions in the Conservative Party, who can't agree on what they want.
Maybe, if we’d had a clear goal and a clear plan before starting down this fantasy road, we could have achieved something positive from the decision to leave. Unfortunately, internal disagreements and plots destroyed any chance of that.
Boris Johnson, a leading campaigner for leaving – snipes from the sidelines, but offers no constructive solution.
JR-M and the ERG failed to persuade enough of their members to trigger a vote of no-confidence. Even the Brextremists within the ERG were unable to agree on a single course of action.
The DUP objects to everything anyone proposes.
Farage has nothing constructive to offer, only destruction and negativity.
Quietly, all the above appear to have realised that the damage caused by a no-deal departure would be disastrous. I no longer hear any of them calling for that.
All we hear is a series of moans that THEY would have negotiated a better deal, given the chance. And with as much credibility as the Monday-morning pundits who claim they would have played a better game than their team
Gove - one of the primary campaigners to leave the EU during the referendum – turned down the job of seeing it through.
No-one could have reconciled all those factions; each of whom has incompatible red lines.
And certainly no-one could have reconciled those red lines while also proposing something the EU could accept.
So yes. Impossible from the start.
The reality is only just starting to sink in at Westminster, as we approach the final few weeks of a 29-month process.
I suspect it might take a lot longer for some of our dear friends in this thread to realise.
so it was always impossible to leave the EU
Yes. Impossible given the different factions in the Conservative Party, who can't agree on what they want.
Maybe, if we’d had a clear goal and a clear plan before starting down this fantasy road, we could have achieved something positive from the decision to leave. Unfortunately, internal disagreements and plots destroyed any chance of that.
Boris Johnson, a leading campaigner for leaving – snipes from the sidelines, but offers no constructive solution.
JR-M and the ERG failed to persuade enough of their members to trigger a vote of no-confidence. Even the Brextremists within the ERG were unable to agree on a single course of action.
The DUP objects to everything anyone proposes.
Farage has nothing constructive to offer, only destruction and negativity.
Quietly, all the above appear to have realised that the damage caused by a no-deal departure would be disastrous. I no longer hear any of them calling for that.
All we hear is a series of moans that THEY would have negotiated a better deal, given the chance. And with as much credibility as the Monday-morning pundits who claim they would have played a better game than their team
Gove - one of the primary campaigners to leave the EU during the referendum – turned down the job of seeing it through.
No-one could have reconciled all those factions; each of whom has incompatible red lines.
And certainly no-one could have reconciled those red lines while also proposing something the EU could accept.
So yes. Impossible from the start.
The reality is only just starting to sink in at Westminster, as we approach the final few weeks of a 29-month process.
I suspect it might take a lot longer for some of our dear friends in this thread to realise.
Karl I am very clearly a Remainer, however, despite the fact that I don't personally feel that leaving the EU is good for the country and it's future, people were sold a referendum as if it were a binding vote, when it was only ever advisory. Neither side covered themselves with glory in the truth stakes, but pitching the idea that if Fred Bloggs the roadsweeper thought it was a good idea to leave then we would is beyond duplicitous. Fred could not possibly ( as none of us could) understand the intricacies and complexities of such a thing, and simply thinking we can stick two fingers up to Europe and leave without any sort of issue is naive and foolish. those that do know relaised that from the beginning and no-one not even the most ardent Brexiteers in the government thought the vote would go the way it did. Cement that shambles with the catastrophe of May calling an election and having to get into bed with the likes of the DUP means that it was unlikely to ever happen, at least not without major upheaval and damage to our country. It's not a case of I and other Remainers don't like it so we'll schweam and schweam and schweam until we're sick, we are genuinely deeply concerned about the wellbeing of the UK with this pack if outright cretins in charge ( and before anyone says Corbyn is worse- yes he might very possibly be) but we are in the most dangerous situation socially, politically and financially that has faced this country for decades, thanks to utter stupidity from our politicians.
V_E
However, I think my country (yours too) has lost, and I'm very sad about it.
I agree whole-heartedly.
Reading the last few contributions from remainers (myself included), I detect more sadness than anything.
And no-one has won yet. As you so shrewdly observe, we all stand to lose.
Unless we can find a way out of this mess.
However, I think my country (yours too) has lost, and I'm very sad about it.
I agree whole-heartedly.
Reading the last few contributions from remainers (myself included), I detect more sadness than anything.
And no-one has won yet. As you so shrewdly observe, we all stand to lose.
Unless we can find a way out of this mess.
One of the things that makes me saddest is that Remainers basically saw this coming: it was part of the campaign of the Remainers to point out that all practical alternatives involved us being, in the short term, worse off, because we would have to accept either a serious financial disruption in the event of crashing out, or accept some rotten deal to avoid this that left us no further out of the EU but with even less influence. But it was all dismissed as part of Project Fear, or anti-British lack of patriotism.
Well, looks like it's coming true. And we aren't responsible for that; we're watching, horrified, just as Leavers are.
Well, looks like it's coming true. And we aren't responsible for that; we're watching, horrified, just as Leavers are.
With commitment to Brexit by Parliament (not just the Tories) and good will from both us and the EU the complexities of disentangling ourselves from forty years of regulatory and legislative miscegenation (like separating Siamese twins was one poster's analogy) should have arrived at an amicable divorce where the assets are settled equably, the kids are looked after etc.
That's certainly how I hoped it would be.
Mind you, I have seen more acrimonious divorces than those where mature adults separate on kindly terms.
Oh well.
That's certainly how I hoped it would be.
Mind you, I have seen more acrimonious divorces than those where mature adults separate on kindly terms.
Oh well.
Not sure why you are blaming Parliament, though: so far, they've passed all Brexit-related legislation with only the most minor of amendments -- and this despite Remainers pushing for a great deal more. All sorts of attempts to either influence the negotiations or -- let's face it -- neuter them altogether have been scuppered.
Doesn't work, then, to blame Parliament. Nor the Courts, which acted to delay the beginning, but have had no impact on its path since then. The EU, meanwhile, have kept a consistent line throughout that has primarily been aimed at preserving their own integrity. How could they do anything else?
There are a lot of people to blame, but since in practice everyone has reacted as should have been expected, the most obvious place to start for recriminations ought to be the people who pretended -- who lied -- that everyone would just fall into line and deliver the post-Brexit utopia on a platter.
Doesn't work, then, to blame Parliament. Nor the Courts, which acted to delay the beginning, but have had no impact on its path since then. The EU, meanwhile, have kept a consistent line throughout that has primarily been aimed at preserving their own integrity. How could they do anything else?
There are a lot of people to blame, but since in practice everyone has reacted as should have been expected, the most obvious place to start for recriminations ought to be the people who pretended -- who lied -- that everyone would just fall into line and deliver the post-Brexit utopia on a platter.
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