May Says It Won't Be A Better Deal

[emmie]

if she goes, who would take her place at this late stage, and if the deal doesn't get through Parliament what happens next.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46250607

[kvalidir]

Oh Naomi, this is not our fault that somehow Brexiteers cavalierly thought Europe would just bend over, a fool could have seen that was not the case. your side lied about the ease of leaving and people who voted for that naively believed them whipped along by some pseudo patriotic tripe peddalled by people who out to have, no, who DID know better.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Please stop using phrases like "Utopian future", jim. Youn should know better. I suggest you do know better.

I (and I think many others) voted Brexit in order to be independent of arbitrary rule by EU oligarchs.

[New Judge]

“I have been trying to find where your specific branch of rugby stands as a spectator sport when compared with others on a worldwide scale…”

It’s not “my” branch of rugby, Karl. I have no affiliation to either code. The popularity of each code varies geographically but both are very popular sports. My point is that in 1900 or thereabouts everybody considered that the breakaway rebels would be quickly quashed and brought back in the fold because “they could not cope with isolation”. They did. And they flourished.

"I think the signs are that May's got the support of most of her party,..."

And she will need much more than that to get this disgraceful capitulation through the Commons, Jim.

The saddest intimation of all this is that many people believe (whether rightly or wrongly) that there is no alternative for the UK but to remain within the pernicious influence of a corrupt, protectionist and isolationist regime - one that has caused immense damage across the continent to a generation of people. It is a sad indictment on the pathetic predicament that UK politicians have allowed their nation to descend into over the last 40 years.

[Rosetta]

Exactly NJ, the soonest we rid ourselves of this Stockholm thought process the better

[jim360]

Oh, great, another unfalsifiable label. How do you even refute that?

No: it's better off being in the EU than out, not because we are prisoners, but because NJ's rhetoric of the EU as a corrupt regime is inaccurate and inflammatory.

[Rosetta]

Jim, your assertion that NJ assertion that of the EU is innacurate and inflammatory is just your opinion, you may be wrong

[vetuste_ennemi]

Kval: //Brexiteers cavalierly thought Europe would just bend over,...your side lied about the ease of leaving and people who voted for that naively believed them whipped along by some pseudo patriotic tripe...//

This Brexiteer didn't want or expect the EU to "bend over". That's not the kind of relationship I, or any mature person wants with anybody. I wanted to leave on good terms making sure that I've settled up the outstanding bar bill before I've left, and hoping I'd be welcomed back on open days.

Nobody lied about the "ease of leaving". The complexities were omitted from the simple binary option presented in the referendum and the Cameron flier: "Do you you want to remain in or leave the European Union? We, the government will implement your decision."

What is "pseudo-patriotic tripe"? Does patriotism come in pseudo and real versions? And in tripey and non-tripey versions? And if so which of the four versions is yours?

[jim360]

I'm confident that most Brexit supporters wanted, and still want, the best for our country, even though I disagree with them over what that means. What I would call "pseudo-patriotic" would be the claim that the reverse isn't true, and that Remain supporters are traitorous, treasonous, treacherous, anti-British, victims of Stockholm Syndrome, etc etc etc. It's not difficult to find numerous examples of that rhetoric on AB and in the wider political debate, both before and after the referendum.

That Leavers were able to claim patriotism only for themselves is more a failure of the leaders in the Remain campaign, who seemed to rely only on selling fear rather than benefit.

[vetuste_ennemi]

The EU may be as pure as the driven snow.

But EU policy is determined by the European Commission whose commitment is overtly to the "European" ideal, not any national interest, that it deliberates in camera, that its members are not elected by and cannot be removed by popular mandate, that it is the sole proposer of EU law, that the only power of the elected parliament is to to refer back, or in extremis reject the proposed legislation, and that any law once in place cannot be repealed by the European Patliament.

[kvalidir]

You only have to listen to the hardline Brexiteer rhetoric to answer all of those questions really VE. Ridiculous phrases bandied around on here like 'EUSSR' for example- really an insult to anyone unfortunate enough to live in the USSR during it's most dictatorial years. The idea that if we left we would be 'free' of the tyranny of Europe ( what flaming tyranny?), the whole 'keep the homefires burning', the grossly misplaced ideal of getting rid of European membeship being more important that absolutely anything else. I consider myself very much a patriot, I love my country, deeply and if I genuinely thought it would be better served out than in I would have voted for that, and I take massive exception to being branded unpatriotic because I'm not a frothing nationalist. Europe is not out enemy, and it was pitched by the leave campaign unfairly as if it were.

[Rosetta]

Jim, there have been failures on both sides of the debate, with both claiming " the truth ". I can only tell you what I feel is the most relevant factor for me is tht I do not want to be ruled by an unelected, undemoctratic bunch of bureaucrats whose vision is a federal state of Europe. Big is not beautiful, it ignores the little people

[vetuste_ennemi]

On the matter of patriotism, Jim - just as a thought - if you were a Spanish physicist, or an Italian one, maybe, even, a Greek one, would you still think that being in the EU was in your and your country's best interest?

[vetuste_ennemi]

Kval, I was with you in your last post till the first full stop

I'm drinking Bacardi and coke by the way. What are you drinking?

(Don't get angry with me - I'll be watching Ms Pugh in this week's episode of "Little Drummer Girl" shortly).

[jim360]

The Spanish and Italian physicists I've met seem happy enough in the EU. Not met any Greek ones.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Excellent, Jim. Good news: if you leave a Spanish university with a degree in physics you'll get a job.

[kvalidir]

Me? It's only 7.30 here so a bit early, but later I plan on and evening of unbridled pizza and Jack Daniels (amongst other things ;-) ) once himself gets home. Scary I think this way when I'm sober isn't it? I'm not disputing the integrity of anyone who voted on either side, I just think we are in a big mess now because this referendum should never have happened in the first place. If we were t leave Europe it should have been done slowly, with planning on both sides towards a parting that wouldn't damage either any more than necessary, as it is, there has been a lot of anti EU mudslinging and we can't expect them to be conciliatory, and now we are paying the price. For what it's worth, I still don't think we will leave, and I said that all along. Good choice of watching btw, I've heard good things :)

[vetuste_ennemi]

No reason for massive damage to either side. But, following my divorce analogy, you often get one party wanting to screw the other.

[sanmac]

In fifty years time, or less, kids will be reading about 'Brexit' in their history books and asking "Why do we have to study this...What a bunch of nonsense?" Much as some kids today ask " What is this WWone stuff all about/"

[tonyav]

Nah, lets get out. No deal has got to be better than this crap deal.

[jim360]

As it is, I guess I'll have to make do with leaving two British Universities with good degrees. who knows if that will lead to a job or not? :P